Rondo made a clear statement tonight: I'm the starter, Sam

[tlee324]

I feel that some people are looking for criticism when there isn't any to really point out; when they try to use the assist totals to say he's not a good passer while ignoring that he doesn't have the ball in his hands as much as the all-stars.

No. Your looking for excuses when he doesn't need any. It's the same offense we have always run and he got 16 assists. Clearly when he plays up to his ability the assists can be there.

Pete

Not really, he had the ball much more than usual, and he clearly proved those who think he can't pass wrong.

[GuyClinch]

strawman alert...are we supposed to believe that an NBA PG "can't pass" -LMAO. No one ever said such thing.

Rondo didn't have that ball any extra amount of time BTW - he just had more break opportunities as it was kinda a helter skelter game. Rondo is at his best in a fast paced uptempo open court game.

Pete

[3pt %]

wow, we now find the worst things to argue about.

Livingston was starting for the clips before he blew out his knee and Sam was fine.

Guess what?

Rondo can play 35 minutes and Sam can play a handful and then finish the games where Rondo is struggling.

What a concept.

[Albanian Damien]

I think it's amazing that our point guards cover each other weaknesses. House covers Rondo's shooting. Rondo covers House and Sam's lack of speed. Sam covers Rondo and House's lack of ability to handle pressure.

[GonzoLays]

oh i guess i just missed the part where he specifically says "rondo doesnt provide leadership"

That's what Cassell said.

[TheCelticTruth]

he doesnt explicitly say rondo doesnt provide leadership, he just says the team needs leadership, that could be applied to everyone singularly in the same fashion you are applying it to rondo. use an emoticon to express frustration all you want, but youre making an inference as to his exact meaning, whether you realize it or not. what you are saying he said, is not actually what he said

[GonzoLays]

he doesnt explicitly say rondo doesnt provide leadership, he just says the team needs leadership, that could be applied to everyone singularly in the same fashion you are applying it to rondo. use an emoticon to express frustration all you want, but youre making an inference as to his exact meaning, whether you realize it or not. what you are saying he said, is not actually what he said

What are you missing here?

First he refers to Rondo (and know one else) as a great talent. Then he says "In the playoffs, it takes more than talent to win playoff basketball games."

The Cassell runs down the list of what a POINT GUARD is suppose to do, you know, get the ball to people. "Leadership means everything. Knowing who to get the ball to (is he refering to Perk? ), knowing when to run(He must be talking about Scott Pollard ), knowing when to set it up (James Posey, perhaps ). I have experience."

Just admit he was talking about Rondo and move on.

[TheCelticTruth]

wasnt the question what can you bring to the team in addition to what rondo does?

so its not like he just called rondo out the way you want it to seem

those are the reasons they are bringing him here, what is he supposed to say he is bringing low post play?

the statement he made is a different statement than if he had said "rondo isnt good enough, or rondo doesnt provide leadership"

the point i am making, and you arent getting, is that youre putting words in sam's mouth and making an inferential interpretation, just as if when danny says "im happy with our team" i said, thats it danny said he wont sign anyone else. which is not what he said.

[tlee324]

strawman alert...are we supposed to believe that an NBA PG "can't pass" -LMAO. No one ever said such thing.

Rondo didn't have that ball any extra amount of time BTW - he just had more break opportunities as it was kinda a helter skelter game. Rondo is at his best in a fast paced uptempo open court game.

Pete

To call him a "mediocre assist man" (rather than saying "he can't pass) and to translate that into his passing ability ignores that he is on the floor with players that have the ball in his hands more than he does. Of course he won't always gather the assist totals in that circumstance, but he DOES have great passing ability, as he shows when he does get the ball more. He's a much better passer than guys like Chucky Atkins and Eddie House, for example. That game was evidence, as he did have the ball in his hands and had more opportunity to create. It may not always be that way, but it was in this game.

[cloverleaf]

I've got to go with GonzoLays on this one, TheCelticTruth.

Whether or not Sam's attitude as expressed in his statement (combined with his clocking of Rondo in that last game) presage a problem with his blending in is another question, but I think Sam was clearly arguing that Rondo has talent but not experience at the point guard, and in the playoffs you need experience to win, particularly with the guy distributing the ball--and that is what Rondo doesn't have. He wasn't just saying, 'I can help the team with my experience', he was saying the C's couldn't/can't win with someone as inexperienced as Rondo at point guard.

The great irony of course is that Sam was in his first and second years in the league when he was on team that won the championship.

[GuyClinch]

To call him a "mediocre assist man" (rather than saying "he can't pass) and to translate that into his passing ability ignores that he is on the floor with players that have the ball in his hands more than he does

Oh so no one said he can't pass right? Way to crush that strawman. Nice job...

What's next lambasting those idiots who said PP can't score 20 points in an NBA game?

And FWIW I don't remember anyone disregarding the fact that the C's play in a motion style offense and that might limit your assist numbers. It hurts KG, Paul or RA too. Anyone could jack up their assists by handling the ball more and of course shooting less.

Either way these "problems" take care of themselves. Rondo assserts himself more - he handles the ball more - and gets more assists. It's up to Rondo to shine - and of late he has been doing that. Prior to that he was not a great assist man.

Post injury his assist to bad pass ratio (a measure not really effected by ball handling was down around 4.5 for a bit) not he has got it back up to healthy 6.6. So he is being quite careful with the ball and racking up more assists.

Pete

[tlee324]

To call him a "mediocre assist man" (rather than saying "he can't pass) and to translate that into his passing ability ignores that he is on the floor with players that have the ball in his hands more than he does

Oh so no one said he can't pass right? Way to crush that strawman. Nice job...

Again, using the assist numbers to "criticize" (at least you're smart enough not to go down the road of "he can't pass") his passing ability was wrong. He has great passing ability, and he proves it when he does get a chance to handle more. It's not just about having the opportunity with the ball in his hands more often, it's also having the ability to actually make great passes. Using his assist totals alone to make the assumption he's not a great passer was just wrong. Twist it. It's okay. I'll be able to explain again.

I'm just glad Rondo has proven all his critics wrong on the floor, really.

[GuyClinch]

Well "great" is kinda relative in the NBA. I don't think he is in the top tier like Nash, Paul, Kidd. Rarely does he make an "OMG" type of pass. That being said he had a few in that 16 assist game. If you watch Nash he is good for several of those passes a game - same with Paul.

The question is who is better at passing then? Half of NBA PGs? 3/4?
Jose Calderon is a guy who is quite a bit better passer then Rondo - and barely gets a peep from the press.

Since there are only 30 or so starting PGs if your a great passer your in the top three (in that catergory) that's the top 10%. "Greatness" has to be in the top ten percent no?

Pete

[tlee324]

I've had this discussion before, and rating passing has to be one of the most subjective elements in basketball. It goes far more than just assists and stats, IMO. This is one of those areas where you actually have to see them perform. Using myself as an example, I still think Bird and Magic had greater passing ability than Stockton, even though Stockton had far more assists... Having watched Rondo in college (not extensively, though) and pretty much seeing every single NBA game of his so far, I think he has great passing ability, moreso than players like Chucky Atkins and Eddie House, for sure. As a passer, I think he's more in the Kenny Anderson-Rod Strickland range (who I think were great passers in their heyday). With more opportunities, I think Rondo would be able to wow most fans. Although I'm more concerned with him using his ability to win games, not really providing fuel for the ESPN highlight reel.

[Bleeding Green]

Of the 19 point guards who have played 1500 minutes or more this season, only 2 have the ball in their hands less--Telfair and Blake.

[GuyClinch]

As a passer, I think he's more in the Kenny Anderson-Rod Strickland range (who I think were great passers in their heyday). With more opportunities, I think Rondo would be able to wow most fans. Although I'm more concerned with him using his ability to win games, not really providing fuel for the ESPN highlight reel

I am skeptical - Kenny suffered from the same 'ball not in my hands" phenomenon (in the pros) - but was a super stud in the college game.

Strickland was decent in college as well averaging 6.4 assists compared to Rondo's 4.1. Kenny Anderson averaged 7.0 assists in his two years.

Rondo's big plus assist wise (and this really helps him as compared to those two guys) is that he is willing to score paltry amounts of points in a game.

Whereas guys like Kenny, Tiny, Chris Paul are all prolific scorers Rondo's first inclination is to pass. This pumps up his assist totals. And despite this his assist% is still "meh".

I don't want to get penciled in as Rondo basher though. As that's a losing argument. Rondo is a heck of a talent. I think he can actually develop to be a dynamite scorer (thats why Doc wants him to stay 'aggressive' all the time and a TOP defender at his position and he might already be there.

Add to that C. Billups quality passing - and you got yourself an all-star. It's just I see Rondo play and I don't think wow "passing wizard." You get more passing wizardry out of Rafer Alston. Sorry..

For example Alston's usage is around the same as Rondo's with a higher assist%. I won't even get into guys like Calderon. Anyway it's an eyeball test for me.

If we want to get into the numbers we could play around all day noting that say Rondo doesn't get alot of "dunk" assists and such. The problem is while he is a great uptempo PG - and makes great lead passes in that situation in the half court he doesn't seem especially effective. It actually makes good sense for Paul, RA and KG to handle the ball in the half court. While they create a ton more turnovers they are far more aggressive with their passes. I am not sure Rondo is that comfortable with lob passes like say Sherm Douglas was.

But like I said except for "SG" shoehorned into PG spots - NBA PG tend to be pretty good passers. I mean is Rondo a better passer then Tinsley in his hey day? Is he even a better passer then now? Yes he is a much better then Delk or Eddie House. But those guys aren't starting PG material.

I think your perceptions are skewed by the progression of poor passers we have had through here. I think mediocre was a little to critical of the guy. I upgrade that to "good" passer as an NBA PG. That's pretty high praise when you consider the gifted competition.

Pete