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Sedale Threatt
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Post#41 » by Sedale Threatt » Tue Mar 4, 2008 10:31 pm

alfurd wrote:-= original quote snipped =-
But maybe it'll be sufficient. It's fine to be demanding more on the defensive end but realistically the Lakers aren't going to be playing defense at the level of the Pistons, Spurs, and Celtics. Hopefully the defense will be good enough to keep the Lakers in games and that the the offense will be superior in those close games when scoring becomes a struggle and pressure D does jack. Moving Gasol to PF and having Bynum at C does make things interesting on D and how it'll allow the perimeter players to guard their assignments. It might not be enough but at least it could do something to cover up the issues that won't be resolved this season.


I agree, this is a much more acceptable goal than Pistons or Spurs level D. That's a very, very tall order. After all, that's what their entire identities are built around.

That said, I also agree with Erik and others that there's a definite need for improvement. No matter how many times I see rankings or stats that show otherwise, I just don't see this team, even with Bynum back, being able to really lock in over the final six minutes of a playoff game.

In my opinion, Gasol, Farmar, Fisher, Vujacic, Walton are all average or worse. (Highlight moment from Sunday's game -- watching Sasha get beat not once but twice off the dribble by Kidd in the span of five or six seconds.)

Odom and Ronny have their moments, but I wouldn't consider them stoppers.

Kobe is playing really well on the defensive end, but considering his offensive load it's always going to be hard for him to give complete effort in that regard (not that he won't try).

Bynum's return provides an immediate shot blocking presence, but I haven't seen him show the instincts or mobility that are required to be a true defensive force.

And Ariza, he's a big athletic body, but I'm not sure if he warrants the reputation he has.

I hope I'm way, way off (always a strong possibility). But defense, as well as experience, are my biggest concerns as the playoffs approach.
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Post#42 » by Erik Eleven » Tue Mar 4, 2008 11:21 pm

We currently have one player that is playing great defense and that is Kobe. In one and the same sequence on Sunday, he made life hell for Kidd on the three point line who despite that somehow fed the ball beautifully into Erica Dampier but as he went up for the dunk, Kobe was already there to block him. His defense all game was simply incredible!

Oh yeah, and he somehow also managed to squeeze in a quiet 52 points. :dontknow:
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Post#43 » by That Nicka » Wed Mar 5, 2008 12:07 am

snaquille oatmeal wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

this is just one reason why.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/recap?gid=2007123013


How does that one game represent our defense as a whole? Especially considering we have Pau now and have yet to see him play with Andrew?
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Post#44 » by That Nicka » Wed Mar 5, 2008 12:15 am

Sedale Threatt wrote:Bynum's return provides an immediate shot blocking presence, but I haven't seen him show the instincts or mobility that are required to be a true defensive force.


Huh?? IIRC, Bynum is the only player in the entire league averaging 10+ rebounds and 2+ blocks a game in under 30 minutes... That stretch of about 15 games that he started before he went down, he was averaging over 12 rebounds and over 2.5 blocks in less than 32 minutes a game
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Post#45 » by Italianhanger » Wed Mar 5, 2008 12:25 am

That Nicka wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



Huh?? IIRC, Bynum is the only player in the entire league averaging 10+ rebounds and 2+ blocks a game in under 30 minutes... That stretch of about 15 games that he started before he went down, he was averaging over 12 rebounds and over 2.5 blocks in less than 32 minutes a game
:nod:
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Post#46 » by Sedale Threatt » Wed Mar 5, 2008 12:48 am

That Nicka wrote:-= original quote snipped =-
Huh?? IIRC, Bynum is the only player in the entire league averaging 10+ rebounds and 2+ blocks a game in under 30 minutes... That stretch of about 15 games that he started before he went down, he was averaging over 12 rebounds and over 2.5 blocks in less than 32 minutes a game


It goes way beyond the numbers. Bynum's always going to excel in that regard simply because of his height and length.

It's about handling pick and rolls away from the basket, being aware enough to slide over and provide help, knowing when to go for the block and when not to...any number of small things that add up to a singular presence that the opposition has to be aware of.

A lot of it's simply based on his youth/lack of experience. But while he's done it in spurts, I have yet seen him truly dominate the paint on a consistent basis, not from a defensive standpoint.

Rebounding-wise, I agree 100 percent that his return will give us a large and immediate boost. Maybe that's enough.
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Post#47 » by Sedale Threatt » Wed Mar 5, 2008 12:53 am

Erik Eleven wrote:We currently have one player that is playing great defense and that is Kobe. In one and the same sequence on Sunday, he made life hell for Kidd on the three point line who despite that somehow fed the ball beautifully into Erica Dampier but as he went up for the dunk, Kobe was already there to block him. His defense all game was simply incredible!

Oh yeah, and he somehow also managed to squeeze in a quiet 52 points. :dontknow:


He really has played well. I thought he was overrated in that regard last season. His defense this year, particularly some of the blocked shots he's had, has been stellar.
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Post#48 » by KB20 » Wed Mar 5, 2008 1:30 am

One thing that has been killing us has been 2nd chance points. We were killing teams on the boards with Bynum but since he's been out we've been getting killed. Once he comes back we start winning the rebounding battle and opposing teams score less points.

I do think we need another center though, a hard nosed shot blocking, rebounding center who isn't a liability offensively. Someone like DeSagana Diop would fit the bill. He gave Duncan problems defensively. If we can't sign him this offseason then I go after Kwame. While he is an offensive liability, this would probably be a last resort.
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Post#49 » by CITYOFANGELSX3 » Wed Mar 5, 2008 2:11 am

I think this will be a different team defensively once bynum and ariza get back. But the rest of the players must have that mentality that defense wins championships.
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Post#50 » by EHL » Wed Mar 5, 2008 2:38 am

snaquille oatmeal wrote:lol @ those who think our defensive problems will be over when Bynum and Ariza get back. sure we'll improve, but not enogh to get to the final or let alone win rings.


You haven't been watching ballgames if you don't think Ariza and Bynum won't make a huge impact on this team defensively. To use a single game, the Boston game, as "proof" is logical fallacies 101 and no one sane here takes it seriously.
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Post#51 » by milesfides » Wed Mar 5, 2008 2:52 am

I think it's an inherent weakness of our team due to personnel. We're soft in the middle. That's inevitable considering that Gasol is nowhere as good defensively as Duncan, KG, Rasheed, etc.

Bynum is not on that level yet either, but still, I've seen Bynum change shots and protect the basket much better than any player we have on our team. His defensive rebounding, shot blocking, and just taking up space was a major part of our strong team defense.

When we have Kobe pressuring the perimeter and Bynum protecting the basket, I think we are capable of playing championship caliber defense, because I see the rest of our team filling in the other spots.

1. Other guard:

Fisher is a physical defender.
Farmar is a good answer to the quick guards, and he plays passing lanes well.
Sasha is a tenacious single coverage defender.

2 Forward Spots:

Gasol is a good weakside shotblocker
Odom is a good individual defender.
Luke is a smart defender, rotates well, and his strength is underrated
Ariza is athletic and long
Turiaf protects the basket, which he does well against opponents' 2nd units


Key is health. Once we have health, I think our roster is flexible enough to match up with anybody in the league.
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Post#52 » by Erik Eleven » Wed Mar 5, 2008 4:52 am

I agree with all that, miles. Except the last part of the last sentence.

I just don't see the right mindset on the defensive end from anyone not named Kobe. Defense is to a very large degree a mindset and that's what needs to be rectified, in my opinion. They need to be hungrier and play d with more urgency.

With the right mindset, this team is athletic and smart enough to be a top three defensive team in the league. Number six is not good enough to win rings. I'm not saying it's bad to be number six, it's great
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Post#53 » by Sedale Threatt » Wed Mar 5, 2008 6:17 am

Agree with this, with tonight's game being a microcosm.

I thought we were pretty solid in the fourth quarter, with good activity and a little bit of leeway from the refs that allowed us to really get after it. Combined with Kobe's outstanding finish, that was probably the difference. That's proof right there that we can be a quality defensive unit -- when we want to.

The other three quarters were pretty crappy, even in light of some of the shots the Kings were hitting. Lack of urgency is a great way to put it; another might be lack of concentration, as summed up by Salmons' layup at about the 8:30 mark in the fourth quarter.

Radmanovic dicks around in the backcourt going for a low-percentage steal, then nobody bothers to cover for him after Salmons beats both him and Gasol down court. I think it was Fisher and Kobe who had a chance to step in, but they both took lazy swipes at the ball and let him drive to the rim. That's just a fundamental lack of effort from everybody on the court.

In a related vein, we have a frustrating tendency to lose track of ball and man, and allow easy layups as a result. Very basic stuff, but we did it repeatedly tonight.

No doubt Bynum's return will help a ton, particularly in relation to Gasol. But even the best shot blocker is eventually going to get into foul trouble if the opposing team has a wide-open lane to the rim.

On the bright side, I think the potential is there to be a better, more consistent defensive team. (I think top 3 is a bit of a stretch, E.)

Which makes me wonder where Phil comes in. I've wondered for the past few years how much he really stresses D.
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Post#54 » by LAKESHOW » Wed Mar 5, 2008 6:56 am

tonight was all kobe down the stretch. but solid teams wont give us that luxury. if games like this occur against quality teams, they wont let us get back in it.

the inside rebounding and inside strength part of our game MUST step up earlier, before bynum shows up. im totally confident bynum will get it done. but heck, they can at least battle and improve themselves in that area on their own.
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Post#55 » by f0gman » Wed Mar 5, 2008 7:11 am

A major defensive change can't happen this season. There are too many things already in motion to change gears now.

The team plays fast. When the bench mob comes in they go to three-quarter court pressure and play even faster. For them to become a superior halfcourt defensive team they'll have to abandon that philosophy and slow things down a lot. They'd have to go 5 less possessions per game. Do you think this team is capable of doing this with the personnel changes and injuries? I don't. Maybe in the summer.

The only tweak I've heard of so far is Phil alluding to adding some zone principles. So far we haven't seen much of that. There's still a lot guys not rotating to shooters. Much of it is personnel. Both Kobe and Lamar have bad habits cheating off their man when he's off the ball. Pau and Turiaf can be outmuscled, Luke and Rad aren't quick enough. I'm worried that there'll be too much faith in Bynum and Ariza (to a lesser extent). Opponents will still be able to pick-n-roll them to decent success. Odom will continue to lack some off-ball awareness. Farmar will have trouble fighting through screens.

Best thing they can do is what they did halfway through the fourth tonight. Like the C's and Pistons they collapsed into the lanes and turned the Kings into jumpshooters. Artest was more than happy to oblige, and the Lakers went on a 14-0 run.

The good thing about this season with Pau is that there will be lots of open shots. Sometimes the starters will have to carry the bench like tonight. Other times the a Farmar or Sasha will have to fill it up. And in rare cases Kobe will simply strap everyone on his back. It's an enviable position to be in. In the end it makes it as hard if not harder for opponents to stop the Lakers than vice-versa. I like that over a seven-game series.
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Post#56 » by crackjack » Wed Mar 5, 2008 7:13 am

Management has definitely assembled an offensive team. If the Lakers don't win the championship, more than likely, it won't be because of offense.

Jackson isn't the type to set the tone on defense either. It's all going to fall on Bryant to will his teammates into a defensive mindset.
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Post#57 » by milesfides » Wed Mar 5, 2008 11:01 am

All good points in this thread, but I thought there was a point in this season in which we just attacked teams defensively. We were very aggressive, and we were throwing teams off. Not just outscoring them, but preventing them from running their offense.

True, Kobe was a major reason, especially his surprising sprints to the basket to block shots as the secondary help defender. That really goes beyond the call of duty for a guard.

But I'm thinking of Ariza, Farmar, Sasha, a lot of guards were very effective in forcing turnovers, and they were allowed to aggressively trap and play the passing lanes because of Andrew Bynum's presence in the middle.

Imo, we haven't seen that type of aggressive defense because we'll get burned. Gasol and Odom just aren't the type of basket protectors that Bynum was for us. Since Bynum went out, so many players are able to score around the basket. That just wasn't the case when before the injury, at least to my recollection. I remember opponents having to take a lot of jumpers against us, tough jumpers.

I really do think Bynum is the missing ingredient for an elite defensive team, and once he returns, I think our defense will be able to much more aggressive and stingy.

With the current squad that we have, I think we're just going to continue to try outscoring opponents. Defensively, I think the best we can do is hope Odom and Kobe slow down the opponent's high scorers, and pray our role players hold their own.

I'm a little cynical about defense; although everybody says its just a matter of effort and commitment, from what I've observed, defense is as much of a skill as anything else in basketball. We have two players who have that reliable defense, enough to have a decisive impact on a game: Kobe and Bynum. As long as Bynum is out, we're missing that half of an elite defensive team; every legit contender seems to have that mix, a basket protector and a perimeter pressure defender.
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Post#58 » by Joe Kleazy » Wed Mar 5, 2008 2:19 pm

I agree with alot of what has been said so far and can understand some of what I disagree with here. Expecting to play on the level of SA,DET, and BOS is probably impossible for now because outside of BOS these teams have YEARS of chemistry and schemes that have been in place and all the players know what each other bring to the table.

Boston just happens to have a defensive beast in KG and has added a truley intelligent DEFENSIVE GURU in Tom Thiboduex(sp?)

Also we have to remember that regarless of whether bynum and ariza are considered elite defenders, they are two of OUR best defenders and two of our main rotation players when the team is healthy. With they way that certain players get B.S. fouls and flops called for them (DIRK) we cant really afford to strap down like we want to without risking what few good defenders we have at the moment sitting (kobe and odom in the POR game) early in the game.

Missing these two shortens our bench and takes away from what we want to do on D. Also other teams know that Pau isn't regarded as an elite defensive big so not seeing bynum in the post allows them to not question penetrating wheras if bynum is there they may think twice.

Both bynum and ariza are great rebounders which allows us to add to odom and pau to keep teams from getting second chances which still count as stops to some degree. You have to think that if we can figure out that defense is the last ingredient to our success that the ZEN master knows this also.

It will never hurt to play to your strengths at the moment due to the circumstances of injuries, but I have no doubt that our team will do what is needed as they have been doing all season. Getting a fully healthy roster allows us to not worry as much about knocking a guy on his azz or playing tight defense thououghout the game when we can afford to use our fouls.

Having a trememdous offense to fall back on also never hurts. We may not be able to join those top notch teams defensively at the moment but we have showed in spurts that we can be respectable and as things get more tense as we get closer to the postseason, I'm sure we will have turned it up a notch.
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Post#59 » by Erik Eleven » Wed Mar 5, 2008 5:30 pm

Sedale Threatt wrote:I thought we were pretty solid in the fourth quarter, with good activity and a little bit of leeway from the refs that allowed us to really get after it. Combined with Kobe's outstanding finish, that was probably the difference. That's proof right there that we can be a quality defensive unit -- when we want to.


That's key, and the exact point of this thread.

Yes, Bynum will make a great difference. So will Ariza. Being a top three defensive team in the league is a tall order. So is winning a championship.

That is why a killer defensive mindset will have to be instilled right now. That way, we might have a shot at becoming a top three defensive team when Bynum and Ariza return, an thus be a true contender, maybe even a favorite.

What else is there to play for?
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Post#60 » by TommyTheCat » Wed Mar 5, 2008 6:09 pm

milesfides wrote:I think it's an inherent weakness of our team due to personnel. We're soft in the middle. That's inevitable considering that Gasol is nowhere as good defensively as Duncan, KG, Rasheed, etc.

Bynum is not on that level yet either, but still, I've seen Bynum change shots and protect the basket much better than any player we have on our team. His defensive rebounding, shot blocking, and just taking up space was a major part of our strong team defense.

When we have Kobe pressuring the perimeter and Bynum protecting the basket, I think we are capable of playing championship caliber defense, because I see the rest of our team filling in the other spots.

1. Other guard:

Fisher is a physical defender.
Farmar is a good answer to the quick guards, and he plays passing lanes well.
Sasha is a tenacious single coverage defender.

2 Forward Spots:

Gasol is a good weakside shotblocker
Odom is a good individual defender.
Luke is a smart defender, rotates well, and his strength is underrated
Ariza is athletic and long
Turiaf protects the basket, which he does well against opponents' 2nd units


Key is health. Once we have health, I think our roster is flexible enough to match up with anybody in the league.


+1............completely agree

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