Top Offensive and Defensive Players Ever

wigglestrue · Post #1 » by **wigglestrue** » Thu Mar 6, 2008 12:43 am

Top 5, 10, 20, whatever you want.
Though it would be interesting to break the all-timers down like this.
I'll take a stab at it:

Offensive

1. Larry Bird
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Michael Jordan
4. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
5. Magic Johnson

Defensive

1. Bill Russell
2. Michael Jordan
3. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
4. Jerry West
5. Hakeem Olajuwon

Texas Longhorns · Post #2 » by **Texas Longhorns** » Thu Mar 6, 2008 12:50 am

Kobe has to be on the offensive, defensively, he's not close to those 5.

wigglestrue · Post #3 » by **wigglestrue** » Thu Mar 6, 2008 1:00 am

Dammit, I knew I should have typed "IBTKR". Here are my lists with the player's defensive/offensive rankings in parentheses, and the degree of separation indicated by arrows. This should explain how I wind up with an overall top 10 of:

1. Michael Jordan
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Bill Russell
4. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
5. Larry Bird (this is a new development, I've always had Magic here)
6. Magic Johnson
7. Oscar Robertson
8. Jerry West
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Shaquille O'Neal/Julius Erving/Tim Duncan/Moses/etc.

Offensive (defensive)

1. Larry Bird (50th?) = more or less to
2. Wilt Chamberlain (10th?) >
3. Michael Jordan (2nd) > or = to
4. Kareem Abdul Jabbar (3rd) > or = to
5. Magic Johnson (100th? 200th?)

Defensive (offensive)

1. Bill Russell (100th? 200th?) >
2. Michael Jordan (3rd) >>
3. Kareem Abdul Jabbar (4th) = more or less to
4. Jerry West (10th?) = more or less to
5. Hakeem Olajuwon (15th?)

Post #4 » by **Doctor MJ** » Thu Mar 6, 2008 5:20 am

Offense

1. Magic Johnson
2. Michael Jordan
3. Larry Bird
4. Julius Erving
5. Charles Barkley

Defense

1. Bill Russell
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Hakeem Olajuwon
4. Tim Duncan
5. Dikembe Mutombo

Oh, and my top 10 overall:

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Bill Russell
4. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Magic Johnson
6. Larry Bird
7. Tim Duncan
8. Julius Erving
9. Shaquille O'Neal
10. Jerry West

Jemini80 · Post #5 » by **Jemini80** » Thu Mar 6, 2008 5:33 am

Clyde needs to be on a defensive list

Post #6 » by **Doctor MJ** » Thu Mar 6, 2008 5:37 am

Jemini80 wrote:Clyde needs to be on a defensive list

He'd top my point guard list, but I have a tough time put him above the top big men of all time.

Wade3Iverson · Post #7 » by **Wade3Iverson** » Thu Mar 6, 2008 5:43 am

No love for Moncrief?

Post #8 » by **Harry Palmer** » Thu Mar 6, 2008 5:44 am

wigglestrue wrote:Defensive

1. Bill Russell
2. Michael Jordan
3. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
4. Jerry West
5. Hakeem Olajuwon

Russell I can't comment on, Jordan I disagree with but at least know your reasoning, KAJ same, but somewhat less...but West ahead of Hakeem as a defender?

Hakeem is the best defender I have ever seen. After him I'd put Pippen, Dumars, Moncrief/Pressey, Payton, Deke, Duncan, Jordan, Robinson and (not joking) Derrick McKey.

Edit: Crap, forgot about Rodman.

Post #9 » by **tkb** » Thu Mar 6, 2008 6:36 am

Top 5 offense, perimeter players
1. Magic Johnson
2. Larry Bird
3. Michael Jordan
4. Kobe Bryant
5. Jerry West

Top 5 offense, post players
1. Wilt Chamberlain
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Shaquille O'Neal
4. Charles Barkley
5. Bob McAdoo

Top 5 defense, perimeter players
1. Sidney Moncrief
2. Michael Jordan
3. Scottie Pippen
4. Walt Frazier
5. Gary Payton / Michael Cooper / Bobby Jones

Can't decide on 5, and put Jones here though he could be put in both places I guess.

Top 5 defense, post players
1. Bill Russell
2. Hakeem Olajuwon
3. Dennis Rodman
4. Dikembe Mutombo
5. Tim Duncan
HM: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Wilt Chamberlain

Could be overlooking someone, but of the top of my head that's my lists.

Original Baller · Post #10 » by **Original Baller** » Thu Mar 6, 2008 6:39 am

Doctor MJ wrote:Offense

1. Magic Johnson
2. Michael Jordan
3. Larry Bird
4. Julius Erving
5. Charles Barkley

Defense

1. Bill Russell
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Hakeem Olajuwon
4. Tim Duncan
5. Dikembe Mutombo

Oh, and my top 10 overall:

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Bill Russell
4. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Magic Johnson
6. Larry Bird
7. Tim Duncan
8. Julius Erving
9. Shaquille O'Neal
10. Jerry West

your on drugs if you believe Duncan is better than Shaq

Shaq's prime >>> Duncan's prime

Duncan may have more MVP's but Shaq was WAY MORE dominant. Get your face outta the stat sheets and watch some basketball.

Post #11 » by **Doctor MJ** » Thu Mar 6, 2008 6:44 am

Original Baller wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

your on drugs if you believe Duncan is better than Shaq

Shaq's prime >>> Duncan's prime

Duncan may have more MVP's but Shaq was WAY MORE dominant. Get your face outta the stat sheets and watch some basketball.

You're telling me to take my face out of the stat sheet when the box score stats underrate Duncan? You get outta here balla.

Also, I never said Duncan's peak was better than Shaq's. Duncan gets the nod for longevity, because again, Shaq's a lazy guy who can't keep himself motivated year in and year out.

big123 · Post #12 » by **big123** » Thu Mar 6, 2008 9:03 am

Doctor MJ wrote:Offense

1. Magic Johnson
2. Michael Jordan
3. Larry Bird
4. Julius Erving
5. Charles Barkley

Defense

1. Bill Russell
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Hakeem Olajuwon
4. Tim Duncan
5. Dikembe Mutombo

Oh, and my top 10 overall:

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Bill Russell
4. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Magic Johnson
6. Larry Bird
7. Tim Duncan
8. Julius Erving
9. Shaquille O'Neal
10. Jerry West

Barkley and Dr J at #4 and #5? I'd put a decent amount of players ahead of them, hell, even Iverson.

Post #13 » by **NO-KG-AI** » Thu Mar 6, 2008 9:52 am

LOL, you must not know anything about Charles and Doc, I mean I love AI, but Charles was an efficiency monster.

Myth_Breaker · Post #14 » by **Myth_Breaker** » Thu Mar 6, 2008 10:24 am

wigglestrue wrote:Top 5, 10, 20, whatever you want.
Though it would be interesting to break the all-timers down like this.
I'll take a stab at it:

Offensive

1. Larry Bird
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Michael Jordan
4. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
5. Magic Johnson

Defensive

1. Bill Russell
2. Michael Jordan
3. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
4. Jerry West
5. Hakeem Olajuwon

It's all good, but frankly speaking, I have no idea why people are ranking in defense Kareem over Wilt: due to longevity=more All-Defensive Teams? It's not enough, especially as these didn't exist until late in Chamberlain's career. I could understand (though not agree with) Hakeem here, but Jabbar? Even before Wilt concentrated less on scoring/more on passing and defense in 1966/67 season, he was more impactful defender than Kareem, with his crazy amounts of rebounds and blocks and ability to shut down every other big in the league one-on-one (read e.g. what he did to Bellamy, being 2nd best offensive center/30-ppg scorer then!). But when Wilt did focus on defense more, he beat Kareem in All-Defensive Teams 2-1 since they were awarded and limited him in head-to-head matchups as good as anyone - both despite being old and significantly past his prime.

Anyway, here are my rankings (no order, would have to think about it too long for now). Please note that there's much fewer perimeter players in Top-10 defense team - because I think they have smaller impact on team defense than bigs. On the other hand, I might've overrepresented them in Top-10 offense squad... but nevermind, let's go with it. ;-)

Top-10 in offense overall:
- Kareem
- Jordan
- Wilt
- West
- Bird
- Barkley
- Shaq
- Magic
- Baylor/Barry/Kobe/Oscar (tie).

Top-10 in defense overall:
- Russell
- Wilt
- Kareem
- Thurmond
- Mutombo
- Frazier
- Moncrief
- DeBusschere
- Rodman
- D. Robinson.

Top-5 bigmen in offense:
- Wilt
- Kareem
- Barkley
- Hakeem
- Shaq.

Top-5 bigmen in defense:
- Russell
- Hakeem
- Thurmond
- Wilt
- Mutombo/Kareem/D. Robinson (tie).

Top-5 perimeter players in offense:
- West
- Jordan
- Magic
- Bird
- Baylor/Barry/Kobe/Oscar (tie).

Top-5 perimeter players in defense:
- Frazier
- Havlicek
- West
- Moncrief
- Payton/Pippen (tie).

big123 · Post #15 » by **big123** » Thu Mar 6, 2008 10:55 am

NO-KG-AI wrote:LOL, you must not know anything about Charles and Doc, I mean I love AI, but Charles was an efficiency monster.

I know all about Charles. I've watched both of their careers up and down. All around game, Charles no doubt about it, but scoring only, I'll take AI. AI will definitely go down as the better scorer, no doubt in my mind in the slightest.

Post #16 » by **tkb** » Thu Mar 6, 2008 11:03 am

West was better than Jordan on both ends Myth? I strongly disagree.

EHL · Post #17 » by **EHL** » Thu Mar 6, 2008 11:13 am

tkb wrote:Top 5 offense, perimeter players
1. Magic Johnson
2. Larry Bird
3. Michael Jordan
4. Kobe Bryant
5. Jerry West

Top 5 offense, post players
1. Wilt Chamberlain
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Shaquille O'Neal
4. Charles Barkley
5. Bob McAdoo

Top 5 defense, perimeter players
1. Sidney Moncrief
2. Michael Jordan
3. Scottie Pippen
4. Walt Frazier
5. Gary Payton / Michael Cooper / Bobby Jones

Can't decide on 5, and put Jones here though he could be put in both places I guess.

Top 5 defense, post players
1. Bill Russell
2. Hakeem Olajuwon
3. Dennis Rodman
4. Dikembe Mutombo
5. Tim Duncan
HM: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Wilt Chamberlain

Could be overlooking someone, but of the top of my head that's my lists.

Good lists, I agree with with pretty much all of them.

Myth_Breaker · Post #18 » by **Myth_Breaker** » Thu Mar 6, 2008 11:19 am

tkb wrote:West was better than Jordan on both ends Myth? I strongly disagree.

Not quite: I have them as about equal on both counts, but here some nuances come into play... West was IMHO equal scorer - even with more complete arsenal due to better range - but the fact is he scored fewer PPG (also due to Baylor's presence, but nevermind the reasons for now). Yet he at least made up for this for being more willing and efficient passer. In defense they are also comparable, yet while West always carried the burden of perimeter defense for his team (in pre-Wilt days, when Lakers were donuts in the middle, even the burden of being main defensive anchor overall!), in Bulls days of success this burden was carried mainly by Pippen (what also helped MJ to focus more on offense and as a result score more points). Hence I have both Jerry and Pip (whom I personally dislike more than Jordan, to make it clear ;-)

) in my Top-5, while Jordan - not. But also Coop or Dennis Johnson didn't make the short list: it's not a shame nor should be a great surprise.

Post #19 » by **Doctor MJ** » Thu Mar 6, 2008 4:52 pm

big123 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

I know all about Charles. I've watched both of their careers up and down. All around game, Charles no doubt about it, but scoring only, I'll take AI. AI will definitely go down as the better scorer, no doubt in my mind in the slightest.

Well first off, I was talking about all around offensive game not scoring (hence why I put Magic at #1).

But in terms of scoring, yeah Charles over Iverson easy. You want to know why Jordan's a better scorer than Kobe? Because he was more efficient. The team is going to get the same number of possessions regardless, so the value of a volume scorer is in his ability to raise overall team efficiency. Hence, if one volume scorer is himself way more efficient than another, he's generally the better scorer.

This is why Iverson never even crossed my mind as being worthy of mention here. He's just too damn inefficient. You should never have to ask if your superstar's TS% is greater (when translated) than the team's overall offensive efficiency, but with Iverson you did.

big123 · Post #20 » by **big123** » Thu Mar 6, 2008 7:14 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

Well first off, I was talking about all around offensive game not scoring (hence why I put Magic at #1).

But in terms of scoring, yeah Charles over Iverson easy. You want to know why Jordan's a better scorer than Kobe? Because he was more efficient. The team is going to get the same number of possessions regardless, so the value of a volume scorer is in his ability to raise overall team efficiency. Hence, if one volume scorer is himself way more efficient than another, he's generally the better scorer.

This is why Iverson never even crossed my mind as being worthy of mention here. He's just too damn inefficient. You should never have to ask if your superstar's TS% is greater (when translated) than the team's overall offensive efficiency, but with Iverson you did.

You can compare Kobe and MJ, but AI and Chuck is kind of ridiculous. Matter of fact, you really can't compare anyone to AI because he's in a league of his own given his stature and what he does. Sure, AI is a volume shooter and his efficiency isn't great, but for him to even do what he's done for as long he's done given his size both (height and weight) is pretty remarkable. You might not think so, but it is. Charles was also undersized as his position, but not nearly as much or at a disadvantage as AI. For AI to be top 3-4 in the league at getting to the line year after year is nuts. When AI hangs it up, he'll most likely be 3rd all time in ppg behind only Wilt and MJ and top 5th in points behind only Kareem, MJ, Wilt and Malone. AI doesn't even belong in the NBA given his stature, let alone be top 5 in these categories, efficiency or not and no, you can't compare AI to any of them or any of them to AI.