How to Defend Against the Suns - NYTimes

[JohnVancouver]

This si a graphic demo of how to stop the Suns break and defend the high pick and roll; not that figuring out how to beat us is a big problem these days, but it's interesting. Jeff Van Gundy does the voiceover x's and o's

From the Times' Play magazine

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2008 ... 8pl&emc=pl

[Arles]

Wasn't Phoenix undefeated against Van Gundy the past 3 seasons?

[thamadkant]

You see when the Suns were unbeaten against most teams... 2-3 seasons ago.

The transition consisted of not only great perimeter shooters in JJ, Q and Bell of 2 seasons ago. Those players had the ability to come a few feet inside to have the 2 perimeter defenders back pedalling towards the rim. With Stoudemire running from the middle, thats 3 players who can finish with a layup or draw the foul... and Nash on top for the shot.

Now...

Bell has made a few buildings with his bricks and Hill is not a good 3pt shooter. So you can afford to prevent the dribble to the rim by sticking close to them. The one man on Stoudemire will stay on him also preventing the finish. Nash will take the shot if he has it if not will give to Stoudemire or one of the perimeter players... sadly, when Bell gets it he bricks it or he hesitates which gives the defenders a second to pick up their men. Hill has been good, but you cannot rely on him nailing every 15 footer with a defender... and again isnt a 3pter by nature, the dribble in pull up or rim attack is natural for Hill however.
Nash, has been shooting the ball "okay"... but okay isnt punishing enough these days... he needs to be back to automatic beyond the arc near the elbow....

[-SDU-]

so then the suns just subsitute barbs in for hill, then what do you do?

nash bell barbs - leave one open at your peril

[tsherkin]

That was a really interesting piece and thadmadkant has a good point, the way you defend the Suns now is a lot different than when the Suns lineup was more dangerous from downtown.

Where I disagree is that Nash is shooting the ball only "OK."

He's at almost 51% from the floor and about 46% from downtown, both of which are outstanding. The first is outstanding because he's a guard and then second is just ridiculous, especially given that he takes almost 5 3PAs a game (4.7).

If you look at his hotspots, this becomes even more noteworthy, since he's shooting less than a raw FG% of 46.2% from only TWO spots on the floor; immediately to the left of the key in the low post and the right wing three ball (43.3 and 37.5 percent, respectively).

He's murdering people inside the arc, though, with raw FG% of 51.9% and 63.2% on the wing jumpers he takes (left and right respectively), which account for about 1.5 shots per game this year.

Moreover, if you take away all the shots he takes right around the rim and just look at his mid-range jumpers, he's taking 5.35 shots in these zones a game and shooting 51.1% (164/321), which makes it abundantly clear that he's pretty much punishing the defense every every other time he takes a shot, which is astonishing.

And of course, his three-point shooting is efficient for a SLASHER, nevermind a shooter.

So you've got 5.35 jumpers under the arc, 4.7 jumpers above the arc and he's getting 2.1 shots right at the rim a game (which rounds up to his B-R average of 12.2 FGA/g), and he's shooting 61.1% on his shots right around the rim.

I don't think that any argument impugning Nash's shooting is credible.

[Melon Yellow]

so then the suns just subsitute barbs in for hill, then what do you do?

nash bell barbs - leave one open at your peril

Yeah, but thats also going pretty small. If your playing a bigger team, that doesn't always make it better. I know that may be a better shooting percentage lineup, but that is very small.

I think you give someone a few years to figure out your style or have someone else make a stop on you and teams will build off that and eventually your not so deadly. I think that's what kinda happened with us. We're still a good team, but we're not that surprising uptempo in-your-face that we were a few years back.

[toucansma]

That's where Giracek helps, and as crazy as it sounds, Amare can shoot the 3 (if you think about it, he is a better shooter than Marion who would launch 3 or 4 3's a game).

[Sun Scorched]

I've said this since the offseason, but Amare needs to be taking more threes. His jumpshot is amazing, he has really worked on it and he has the range. If Amare could manage to drag his defender out to the arc, opposing teams would have problems defensively.

Amare could, in theory, help us spread the floor like we've been talking about. Spacing, that's our biggest problem right now, spacing.

[tsherkin]

I've said this since the offseason, but Amare needs to be taking more threes. His jumpshot is amazing, he has really worked on it and he has the range. If Amare could manage to drag his defender out to the arc, opposing teams would have problems defensively.

Amare could, in theory, help us spread the floor like we've been talking about. Spacing, that's our biggest problem right now, spacing.

No.

No.

A thousand times, no.

Amare needs to learn how to iso more effectively in the low post, NOT to take threes. The Suns need Grant Hill working on his three-point shot 6 hours a day, not Amare taking threes.

This would be a TERRIBLE idea.

[Waderr]

I agree Amare needs to stay his arse in the paint and learn some post, learn some back to the basket moves. If Phoenix is to improve he has to stay in the painted area and do some dirty work. He is not a guard, stop shooting jumpers and three pointers. They need a power forward not another jump shooter. They have 14 of those players. Amare ! Do you remember when Wallace was man handling you last week?

[tsherkin]

I agree Amare needs to stay his arse in the paint and learn some post, learn some back to the basket moves. If Phoenix is to improve he has to stay in the painted area and do some dirty work. He is not a guard, stop shooting jumpers and three pointers. They need a power forward not another jump shooter. They have 14 of those players. Amare ! Do you remember when Wallace was man handling you last week?

Hell, if Amare learned and perfected that one move that Wallace used to abuse him, he'd be murderously difficult to guard even in an iso set against double-teams. The turnaround fallaway was the primary weapon of Old Jordan and the foundation of the Dream Shake. If Amare could consistently hit that jumper in the post (even the lean fade rather than a full-on turnaround fade), he'd be basically unguardable because if he sold you on the body fake, he'd be past you too fast to guard without fouling.

He needs a jump-step into the lane for a jump hook, needs work on his baseline spin, needs a cross-pivot-into-jumper from the elbow and he needs that fallaway jumper (and preferably also the turnaround fallaway).

If he really works on perfecting those and adds them to the mix with his work off of screens and in the sidescreen scenario, then he'll be a complete offensive player and one of the most dangerous scorers in the league.

[Duiz]

WTF? Amare should be learning to become a low post presence rather than a mediocre 3 point shooter. He ain't Ray Allen, or Mehmet Okur...

[toucansma]

Why not?? Like Sun Scorched said he would drag his defender out. Amare's problem is not scoring down low (or offense let alone). THink about it, if Shaq now has Amare's spot, Amare now has Marion's old spot. What did Marion do (not great but often worked), shoot 3s from time to time. Where did Nash go when driving down low? Marion sometimes. For the Suns to have spacing, what is the point of having both bigs always down low, when one can slide out to the 3. I am not saying shoot 4 a game, but enough to make defenses respect him. He could be a dangerous 3 point shooter by the way he has improved his shot.

[Duiz]

I think the best way to defend against it is only through efficient scoring... not missing shots and turnovers, which he does mention there.

[Waderr]

Why not?? Like Sun Scorched said he would drag his defender out. Amare's problem is not scoring down low (or offense let alone). THink about it, if Shaq now has Amare's spot, Amare now has Marion's old spot. What did Marion do (not great but often worked), shoot 3s from time to time. Where did Nash go when driving down low? Marion sometimes. For the Suns to have spacing, what is the point of having both bigs always down low, when one can slide out to the 3. I am not saying shoot 4 a game, but enough to make defenses respect him. He could be a dangerous 3 point shooter by the way he has improved his shot.

He is not a great power forward like Wallace, Garnett,Tim Duncan, Paul Gasol type that a can kill his guy inside and out. The coaches Im sure tell him this. A because shaq is there is not a reason to decide to be a jumpshooter, you guy have 13 other guys to do that. Thats why Marion is so missed he did a lot of the dirty work. Amare listen get your arse in the paint and hire a coach to show how to punish people down low. I'm questioning weather Phoenix traded the right guy.

[thamadkant]

The reality is..

Hill will not get enough time during practice to raise his 3pt skills, not for the rest of the season. He'd improve slightly but won't make him a legit 3pter until he gets a full off season just concentrating on it.

Stoudemire should actually CUT DOWN on jump shots and concentrate on getting more physical. He needs to put people in foul trouble. He was so much more dangerous when he attacks the rim or gets physical trying to score... running over people by trying to dunk on them is not the same, as he gets called for many offensive fouls. He needs to plant himself deeper and use his buttocks to clear room for the entry pass... Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett and the old and current Shaq does it but obviously, Shaq lacking the ability to move as he did makes it a lot harder.

Stoudemire's 15 footer is fine, but what he should only be taking them if the paint is clogged, like in a zone defense. A one on one situation should always be with Amare planted deep, getting position on his man, also he needs to learn that eventually the double will come after he touch the ball and he should always be ready to pass, basically KNOW the double is coming and play it by making the pass to the open guy, obviously he needs to know that he will pass before he even put the ball on the ground and dribble.

O'Neal should always be on the opposite side of Stoudemire, if Stoudemire during a man on man situation, when he is able to move within the paint and Shaq's man comes in for the help defense, Shaq should move within 3 feet of the ring from the other side, Amare needs to know to drop the ball to Shaq for the finish... what I see happening is Amare making the drop pass to Shaq whilst Shaq's man is still on Shaq, this usually happens when Amare tries to shoot on top of his man, but his man timed the challenge well, Amare is forced a bad shot or a bad pass. During this time, it helps if Bell is willing to catch the ball and SHOOT and not hesitate... usually because his man will sag off him ready for the rebound. When Bell hesitates it kills the motion and potential plays because everyone (suns players) are moving and cutting, when he hesitates the defense catches up and open looks become that much harder to obtain. Someone like Diaw or Hill should be moving from the elbow onto the top of the key when Nash dribbles in, Nash should always have an option at the top apart from Amare and Shaq.. Shaq at the high post screen is a very bad idea... D'Antoni is too easy of a book to read these days.

[tsherkin]

Why not?? Like Sun Scorched said he would drag his defender out. Amare's problem is not scoring down low (or offense let alone). THink about it, if Shaq now has Amare's spot, Amare now has Marion's old spot. What did Marion do (not great but often worked), shoot 3s from time to time. Where did Nash go when driving down low? Marion sometimes. For the Suns to have spacing, what is the point of having both bigs always down low, when one can slide out to the 3. I am not saying shoot 4 a game, but enough to make defenses respect him. He could be a dangerous 3 point shooter by the way he has improved his shot.

*sigh*

Amare isn't ever going to be a good three-point shooter and the last thing the Suns need to do is dip the efficiency of their leading scorer. Shaq only playing about 30 minutes a game, leaving nearly 20 minutes (in fact, a full quarter and a half) in which Amare will have the space he needs to isolate down low.

No, 3pt shooting from Amare would be outright stupid on behalf of the Suns, a waste of the physical talent that you have in Amare. He needs to plant his butt in the low post and go to work for high-percentage shots that draw fouls and those are the moves that'll get it done. Having him hang around the arc will reduce his offensive rebounding (which is a no-no on this team given how bad they already are in that category) and will make the other team NOT have to guard the paint, increasing the pressure they can exert on the perimeter defensively... which is antithetical to your plan to have him shoot threes anyway.

I passionately disagree that Amare shooting threes is a wise idea because it screws EVERYTHING up royally for the Suns on offense.

The reality is..

Hill will not get enough time during practice to raise his 3pt skills, not for the rest of the season. He'd improve slightly but won't make him a legit 3pter until he gets a full off season just concentrating on it.

Eh, practice time on shooting is determined by the individual, not by the team. If he wants the time, he'll find the time. He's doing a very good job for someone who's never been any good at it and that the shots he gets are usually open is helpful but I agree, he's not likely to be a great 3pt shooter. What is true is that his comparative weakness is hindering the Suns' perimeter attack and making everything under the arc harder for Nash/Stoudemire.

Stoudemire should actually CUT DOWN on jump shots and concentrate on getting more physical. He needs to put people in foul trouble. He was so much more dangerous when he attacks the rim or gets physical trying to score... running over people by trying to dunk on them is not the same, as he gets called for many offensive fouls. He needs to plant himself deeper and use his buttocks to clear room for the entry pass... Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett and the old and current Shaq does it but obviously, Shaq lacking the ability to move as he did makes it a lot harder.

Meh, Amare is drawing at 0.534 FTA/FGA (22.3% DrawF), he's drawing fouls at a perfectly acceptable rate, even an OUTSTANDING rate. He's getting 8 FTA off of 15 FGA, which is great, you don't have to worry about that. And he's in the middle of setting a career-high in FG%, so I'm not OVERLY worried about it.

The main thrust of the problem Amare presents is that he doesn't exert a threat unless he's involved in a play for someone else. Catch-and-shoots at the right elbow, catch-and-drives around the foul line, pick-and-rolls with Nash...

Amare needs to present more of an isolation threat and to do that, he needs to develop his low post game because there really isn't space for him on the wings, where you've got Nash and Hill and all the shooters.

Because he's got that 15-footer, he can also set up in the high post opposite to Shaq (as you note below, keeping them on opposite sides is critical) and then you can have Amare turn and face the rim for hard drives and short jumpers.

And as we've already seen, if Amare catches the ball on the move coming from the left side off a swing pass with Shaq on the very low opposite block, Stoudemire is basically unimpeded all the way to the rim, so the Suns should be trying to recreate that scenario as often as possible, because Shaq draws two guys when he's anywhere near to that distance from the basket.

[Cash]

I just want to thank tsherkin for his excellent work in this thread. Every post a gem; perfectly spot-on and very well reasoned and explained. They were truly a pleasure to read!

[tsherkin]

I just want to thank tsherkin for his excellent work in this thread. Every post a gem; perfectly spot-on and very well reasoned and explained. They were truly a pleasure to read!

Haha, inflated ego-time!

Seriously, thanks, I appreciate that.

[JohnVancouver]

Why not?? Like Sun Scorched said he would drag his defender out. Amare's problem is not scoring down low (or offense let alone). THink about it, if Shaq now has Amare's spot, Amare now has Marion's old spot. What did Marion do (not great but often worked), shoot 3s from time to time. Where did Nash go when driving down low? Marion sometimes. For the Suns to have spacing, what is the point of having both bigs always down low, when one can slide out to the 3. I am not saying shoot 4 a game, but enough to make defenses respect him. He could be a dangerous 3 point shooter by the way he has improved his shot.

I think Amare can shott threes, and spread the floor on some sets but really, do you want one of our rebounding players to move away form the board when that's the one thing we're doing well at the moment?

Turning Amare into Marion won't work - then who's going to be Amare?