The state of the denver nuggets(merged topics)

[Sub-Zero]

They have had an identity, in that they rely on getting easy baskets, running, feeding off of TOs, and Carmelo/AI to score well (with the majority of others being limited in the half-court).

It's just, that identity isn't versatile enough and can't be relied on, to do what they want to do and what they want to be.

You're contradicting yourself here homeboy. you're telling me their identity is getting easy baskets and feeding off turnovers, but yet you say it is not a true identity which I agree because you can't count on getting easy baskets when you play good defensive teams like the spurs, rockets and even lakers.

And as far as forcing turnovers its like counting on a good harvest during winter. Melo and AI on the other hand cant outscore teams and if one of them has an off night its a blowout for the opponent. So we're back to square 1, so please tell me Denver's identity Ballings.

[styler]

the shadowy collective that runs this team seems to have no idea about chemistry or leadership or mental toughness. they just pick players who have lots of talent and potential and/or big names. it's like they're playing nba live.

then karl sends them out to freelance like the best pick-up team in the world (which they might be, but actual TEAMS beat them down), while he sags against the scorers' table and sucks on cough drops.

[jradMIT]

They dont play good team defense, despite their efficiency numbers. During that Rockets game the rockets were getting wide open looks and layups all night. They dont rotate over or help out. They also have had an easier schedule than the rest of the teams above them. I really think its a long shot for them to make the playoffs now unless they gel quickly. You have to put the blame on the coach. He is the one that should be getting them to have more chemistry which they lack right now. Talent is great but chemistry can beat talent, look at the spurs.

[xcomputerman]

imo, ai has been very good this season. But not against the rockets. I don't know what happened to him lately. Before midseason he played like an allstar.

Lots of teams seem to have bad shooting nights against the Rockets. Gee, I wonder why.

Like others have pointed out, Denver is actually not a bad defensive team -- they rank near the top efficiency-wise. The problem with their defense, though, is that it is not a disciplined brand of defense like you'll see from teams like the Rockets, Celtics and Spurs. It is more predicated on gambling, playing passing lanes, and shot blocking. It's not the kind of defense that wins in the playoffs, and in the Western Conference today, teams are just too good for that. They met their end in Houston early because of this: they started off forcing a lot of steals and turnovers and overplaying a lot. Then the Rockets regrouped, adjusted, went on a run and never looked back. From quarter 2 to quarter 4, the Rockets pretty much did whatever they wanted to on offense and the Nuggets could do nothing about it.

But Denver's defense isn't really even their biggest problem. Denver right now is like the pre-JVG Rockets with Francis and Mobley. Lots of isolation and very little teamwork on offense. Little motion, no cutting ... heck they don't even seem to have a de-facto pick and roll play that they can depend on DESPITE having Iverson, Anthony and Camby. That's not going to get it done. They need new coaching.

[xcomputerman]

They need to get rid of Karl and get a more defensive minded coach, get some three point shooters, and find a good PG.. I still think the AI and Melo thing can work if you fix these other problems... a healthy Shaun Livingston would be a nice fit as a tall PG alongside AI that could guard SGs... Jeff Van Gundy could bring the defense... and they could sign some cheap 3 point shooters..

I don't think they even necessarily have to have a Jeff Van Gundy, although his brand of hard-nosed, protect the paint at all costs, contest every shot and rotate-efficiently defense would certainly be a big improvement. I think they already have enough talent to be a dominant defensive team -- with players like Iverson, Anthony, Martin and Camby in their starting lineup -- that any coach who pays even a modicum of attention to team defense should be an improvement over what they have now. On the other hand, they *have to* get more efficient on offense. And they've got to get an extra perimeter shooter or two.

[Ballings7]

They have had an identity, in that they rely on getting easy baskets, running, feeding off of TOs, and Carmelo/AI to score well (with the majority of others being limited in the half-court).

It's just, that identity isn't versatile enough and can't be relied on, to do what they want to do and what they want to be.

You're contradicting yourself here homeboy. you're telling me their identity is getting easy baskets and feeding off turnovers, but yet you say it is not a true identity which I agree because you can't count on getting easy baskets when you play good defensive teams like the spurs, rockets and even lakers.

And as far as forcing turnovers its like counting on a good harvest during winter. Melo and AI on the other hand cant outscore teams and if one of them has an off night its a blowout for the opponent. So we're back to square 1, so please tell me Denver's identity Ballings.

Nope. You didn't take it right.

I never said it's not a true identity, or not their true identity. You brought "true" into the picture. I didn't mean legitimate in the way of "true". Because there is a difference between legit and true.

I said what I described there, is their identity, but in them having that their identity, it is not one that is legitimate and diverse enough. Legitimate meaning, being credible and believable, and supportive of what kind of make-up a team needs. To get to the level that Denver wants to, in being a title contender.

The identity they have is not flexible enough. And then their half-court game isn't solid and consistent. You have AI/Carmelo for what they are, but neither are constantly good shooters (Carmelo's mid-range jumpshot is), and then there isn't nearly enough around AI/Carmelo in the half-court. Lacking respectable, proven, reliable 3PT shooting, and Nene has unfortunately always had various things going on with him. In the way of Nene developing and being consistent over his career, with the injuries and now with the cancer situation.

The options for AI/Carmelo to go when they aren't in a positon to score, or just the team as a whole, are around average and limited. Things improve when Nene is around and healthy, but there still definitely has to be more range and reliability on the perimeter. Plus generally with Nene, he has not been a regular part of the team, so either he has to be able to stay relatively healthy, or they have to get somebody new to replace him.

Thus, again, aside from AI/Carmelo isolating in the half-court, the rest of what they do is creating TOs and getting easy baskets off them. This is their make-up. Everything else is poor or inconsistent, thus, not in that identity.

[IggyTheBEaST]

coaching or the lack there of is the biggest issue in my opinion. A team with 2 of the top scorers in the league, should have no reason to get stagnant on offense, but with no plays actually being called, they do.

Bingo.

Coaching is Denvers #1 problem. They play playground ball instead of having a game plan. They are lucky they have Iverson and Melo because otherwise they would be the knicks.

The next biggest problem they have is with their perimeter defense. They are lucky enough to have a defensive beast in Marcus Camby but they take him for granted and dont give him any support on the outside. When your two best players are below average defensively, you need to over compensate.

If they get a lock down defender at the 2 spot and make a significant coaching upgrade, I can see them going to the WCF

[TheKingOfVa360]

They need to get rid of AI he just isn't a player that you can build a winning team around plus he is stunting Melo's growth.

[Sroek]

-= original quote snipped =-



They are the 5th most effective defensive team. They get a lot more crap about their defense than they deserve IMO.

Because Camby carries their defense.

[Ballings7]

Bingo.

Coaching is Denvers #1 problem. They play playground ball instead of having a game plan. They are lucky they have Iverson and Melo because otherwise they would be the knicks.

The next biggest problem they have is with their perimeter defense. They are lucky enough to have a defensive beast in Marcus Camby but they take him for granted and dont give him any support on the outside. When your two best players are below average defensively, you need to over compensate.

If they get a lock down defender at the 2 spot and make a significant coaching upgrade, I can see them going to the WCF

Upgrading at PG and significantly improving their 3PT shooting are also just as important issues. 3PT shooting has been a serious issue for years for Denver.

They don't have a legit shot of going deep until they improve their defense, 3PT shooting, and starting PG. Nene needs to be healthy, too.

Camby's weakness defensively is his lack of mass.

[big123]

They need to get rid of AI he just isn't a player that you can build a winning team around plus he is stunting Melo's growth.

You better hope the Lakers win the championship this year. It just doesn't get much better for Kobe this year.

Fisher/Odom/Gasol/Bynum and arguably the best bench in the league would still be very respectable even without Kobe. Kobe better put them over the top and win a Chip.

[big123]

-= original quote snipped =-



Bingo.

Coaching is Denvers #1 problem. They play playground ball instead of having a game plan. They are lucky they have Iverson and Melo because otherwise they would be the knicks.

The next biggest problem they have is with their perimeter defense. They are lucky enough to have a defensive beast in Marcus Camby but they take him for granted and dont give him any support on the outside. When your two best players are below average defensively, you need to over compensate.

If they get a lock down defender at the 2 spot and make a significant coaching upgrade, I can see them going to the WCF

Agreed.

[big123]

-= original quote snipped =-



Upgrading at PG and significantly improving their 3PT shooting are also just as important issues. 3PT shooting has been a serious issue for years for Denver.

They don't have a legit shot of going deep until they improve their defense, 3PT shooting, and starting PG. Nene needs to be healthy, too.

Camby's weakness defensively is his lack of mass.

Agreed

[Malone Strong]

Its not Karl's fault. His team wont listen to him. AI has never been a coachable player. He only got to the Finals once because he was young, had a decent cast, and was the best scorer in the league. Aside from that, he always dissappointed in Philadelphia and was frequently getting into public spats w/ Larry Brown.

Melo is probably worse IMO. That dude's been an arrogant, cocky little b**ch since day 1 in this league. I'll bet he's the worst nightmare for a coach on and off the floor. AI seems to have grown up a little bit, at least publicly, but I'm sure he's no darling behind closed doors.....

[ambiglight]

They have all the pieces necessary to contend. They just need to use them better.
For whatever reason they believe AC gives them more on defense than they give up offensively by keeping JR on the bench.
They also have Camby on the perimeter too much.
So between JR, AI, Melo, Kenyon, and Camby, this team would be contenders, but they rarely play this line-up.

Couple that with a western conference that's really stacked and its not good enough to be above average.

Their defense is better than people think. They just dont play teams well that have good benches and can shoot the three ball. Which is pretty much all the good teams in the west. Their offense is good when they use JR and Camby right.

Other than that this team is extremely underrated and there flaws are surmountable.

[Ballings7]

They have all the pieces necessary to contend. They just need to use them better.

No, they don't quite have the pieces.

Denver shoots 34 percent 3P, as a team, ranking 19th in the league. Most of the season they've ranked in the 33 percent range, which is below-average, and around the bottom of the NBA.

Also personnel-wise, they're lacking proven, good shooters. Kleiza is the closest to this and is shooting 34 percent (which is passable) and has not established himself in the playoffs. So actually not that close.

Also Denver lacks a starting-caliber PG/facilitating player, and a wing-defender in the starting line-up, or that is at least in for the latter part of games.

Anthony Carter is not a starting-caliber PG. He's a bench player and fill-in starter at most. Plus, aside from AC's offensive limitations, his lack of size defending against SGs is a problem. Especially when AI is the back-court partner at SG on offense. AI needs a bigger team-playing guard, who can make open shots consistently, defend shooting guards, and is a pass-first guy. Which would more than qualify as a starting-caliber player, and is the kind of guard that fits with Iverson well. So AI can be used the majority of the time as he is best, which is a scorer.

The starting back-court is far too small, and AC at PG doesn't complement AI that well.

So between JR, AI, Melo, Kenyon, and Camby, this team would be contenders, but they rarely play this line-up.

Honestly, this is ridiculous and strange.

The perimeter defense is bad, and there isn't control in going for steals.

Outside of hustle points, Camby's passing, around average jumpshooting from both, there is no interior offense. As a whole that is limited offensive ability and not a contending-type interior offensive situation.

3PT shooting is not even decent. JR is the best shooter in the line-up, and his shot selection isn't solid and he's a streaky shooter. Not a pure-type shooter. Unproven in the playoffs, as well. The floor spacing is not really there, and generally what it needs to be. AI can make clutch threes, but overall he doesn't shoot it at a respectable percentage.

I'd say these clear flaws are why the line-up isn't played much. There is just a small amount of compatability and balance from that starting five.

Which of course, is needed in significant form from your starting five in part to be a contender. Which, that starting five, is definitely not in the mold of a title contending line-up.

Their defense is better than people think. They just dont play teams well that have good benches and can shoot the three ball. Which is pretty much all the good teams in the west.

What does all that say about the level of their defnese? That's not like a contender. Perimeter defense is a weakness.

They give up a lot of points in the paint and give up a bunch of threes per game. 39.3 points in the paint, 23rd rank, and 7.7 3P per game, 29th rank.

They don't defend in the traditional way on a consistent and effective basis.

Relying so much on and without restraint in going for steals and blocks, isn't good. Because when you don't get the deflection, you compromise your team's defense. Which unless you have discipline, and depend on gambling less, holes are and will be created in the defense.

Their offense is good when they use JR and Camby right

Their offense certainly isn't in the way of a title contender, regardless. They rank well in PPG, APG, fast-break well, get to the line a lot.

But the three point shooting isn't above-average, Nene's inconsistency and health issues prevent them from having a low-post option, and inside offense outside of put-backs, dunks, and some jumpshooting.

Outside of AI/Carmelo, their half-court game and shooting ability is pretty limited. Spacing the floor by shooters commanding respect isn't there too much as a team. Nene has to be more healthy and get consistent touches, and better the 3PT shooting quite a bit, for their half-court game to be a strength. Which it is not.

--------

Also, in your claim of the Nuggets being able to contend (at least for this season) - they aren't in the playoffs yet, could well not make it, and if they do make it, will be a low seed, and have to play any series starting out on the road. The Nuggets have not been a solid road team this season.

Even with all that said about chemistry etc. I firmly believe that the Nuggets would be ahead of the Jazz right now with Nene healthy and motivated all season. I think he is that important

I don't firmly believe it, but I think that is a credible point. Nene's a serious piece to Denver.

[IggyTheBEaST]

whens nene back

[KRANG]

I remember at the beginning of the season juring 1 of those training camp specials on nbatv, the nuggets were talking about 60 games this season. LOL. A team doesn't talk about winning 60, they just do it. Denver has too many gangsta wannabe's lik K-mart and Melo. The whole team is more concerned about how their headbands and armbands look than playing ball.

[carrottop12]

Everyone needs to calm down about the state of the Nuggets, remember, all they need is a training camp together with AI and Melo and they will be a lock for the Northwest Division, and most likely the best team in the West.