Charlie Villanueva as a Starter

[DH34Phan]

In 14 games as a starter, Charlie Villanueva has been pretty solid, and a lot better than the former starter, Yi.

His numbers:
13.8 ppg
7.1 rpg
1.1 apg

During this 14 game stretch, though, his shooting percentage is awufl: 35.8% A lot of that has to do with the 1st 2 games of March, where he, and the rest of the team played horribly.

People make excuses for other players on this team all the time, so think it's fair to give Charlie the benefit for only 2 bad games out of 14. If we looked at the other 12 games, his numbers would be:

15.6 ppg
7.6 rpg
1.25 apg
43.6 FG%

Aside from the defense, those numbers are pretty impressive. Offensively, they aren't much worse than Bogut's best month of his career. Bogut rebounded better and shot a better percentage, but that is to be expected of a center IMO.

If these numbers continue the rest of the season, a 15/7 23 year old is something that we probably want to hold on to for the future, unless we can trade him for picks or to get rid of Bobby or Gadz.

[europa]

Aside from the defense, those numbers are pretty impressive.

The bolded part simply cannot be ignored, however. I don't think anyone here has ever questioned Villanueva's offensive ability. It's the horrible defense and motivational issues which continue to dog him and create such a serious question about whether you can win with this guy - at least in my opinion. He's definitely playing better and that's great to see. If I had any belief his defense would improve I'd say keep him and trade Yi (although I realize the chances of Yi being traded are highly remote). But I just don't know if the Bucks can win with Villanueva's terrible defense when they have so many other terrible defenders on the team. And even if they improve defensively elsewhere, can you win with a soft starting PF who doesn't defend? To me, those are the major issues that have to be addressed and can't be tossed aside even if he plays well offensively.

I will say this - if he finishes the season strong and some team were to make a strong offer for Yi I'd do it and roll the dice with Villanueva and see how it goes. Again, I realize the chances of Yi being traded are highly remote and I fully expect Villanueva to be on another team when next season begins, but I'm not so enamored with Yi that I'd turn down a good trade for him if one was offered.

[LUKE23]

Do we have a comparison for what Yi's numbers would be if extrapolating his season numbers to the minutes CV is getting at a starter?

Not calling you out, I'm just curious how they compare with identical minutes.

[kebzach]

Aside from the defense, those numbers are pretty impressive.

Aside from the fact that Lincoln was shot during it, the play "Our American Cousin" rocked.

[paulpressey25]

Wow...Europa with a major positional move....granted with qualifiers....

I'll trade CV quickly if the deal is right. I don't want to trade Yi, but man it is troubling to see how he's faded here. Maybe legit reasons, but troubling.

What if we could trade Yi + Gadz for Thad Young/Andre Miller.

Would you do it?

[DH34Phan]

Do we have a comparison for what Yi's numbers would be if extrapolating his season numbers to the minutes CV is getting at a starter?

Not calling you out, I'm just curious how they compare with identical minutes.

Yi was getting close to 28 minutes a game as a starter.

As a starter, in 14 games, CV gets about 29 minutes a game.

In the 12 games, CV got about 30 minutes a game.

So they were getting about the same amount of minutes while starting.

[europa]

What if we could trade Yi + Gadz for Thad Young/Andre Miller.

Would you do it?

Absolutely. Then draft Mayo and package Mo and Redd and see what you can get for them. Major renovation project.

I'd still offer Villanueva/2008 second for Lowry/Warrick, though. I think the Grizzlies would give serious consideration to that offer.

[kebzach]

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The bolded part simply cannot be ignored, however. I don't think anyone here has ever questioned Villanueva's offensive ability. It's the horrible defense and motivational issues which continue to dog him and create such a serious question about whether you can win with this guy - at least in my opinion.

Agreed.

The debate has never been about whether or not CV can score at the NBA level. He can. The problem is that he couldn't be bothered to care less any any other aspect of the game.

[DH34Phan]

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Aside from the fact that Lincoln was shot during it, the play "Our American Cousin" rocked.

People are quick to forget that before this season, Andrew Bogut was a pretty marginal defender himself.

CV is 23. I still think he can turn himself into an average defender. With his offensive skillset, and average defense, you are looking at a pretty valuable player IMO.

[europa]

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Agreed.

The debate has never been about whether or not CV can score at the NBA level. He can. The problem is that he couldn't be bothered to care less any any other aspect of the game.

Yup. And none of that stuff can just be tossed aside as if it doesn't matter. It definitely matters - especially the horrible defense given how it significantly contributes to the No. 1 issues still plaguing the Bucks.

The thing is, Villanueva isn't an average or even mediocre defender. He's absolutely horrible. It's a real stretch in my opinion to believe someone that bad defensively will show meaningful improvement given how the problem has affected him dating all the way back to college.

[kebzach]

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People are quick to forget that before this season, Andrew Bogut was a pretty marginal defender himself.

CV is 23. I still think he can turn himself into an average defender. With his offensive skillset, and average defense, you are looking at a pretty valuable player IMO.

Based on CV's track history at HS, UConn, Toronto and Milwaukee, I'd disagree. And Bogut is better this year, but still has a LONG way to go.

[DH34Phan]

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Based on CV's track history at HS, UConn, Toronto and Milwaukee, I'd disagree. And Bogut is better this year, but still has a LONG way to go.

You think it's inconceivable that he could turn himself into an average defender?

He is only 23, and really only in his 2nd true NBA season (last year was a wash IMO). He still is early in his development. His offense skillset is already top notch, if we can get some defense in him, we are looking at a very valuable player.

It's worth the try, IMO, as CV is the most talented player on this team.

[paulpressey25]

-= Absolutely. Then draft Mayo and package Mo and Redd and see what you can get for them. Major renovation project.

I'd still offer Villanueva/2008 second for Lowry/Warrick, though. I think the Grizzlies would give serious consideration to that offer.

I could go with any of that. So much now depends on where our draft pick is. If we get lucky with top two, I'd take Rose and then would not make any deals for a PG. Go with Rose and Sessions...

[dunleavyjr]

Bucks winning/losing record putting Yi as starter

-vs-


Bucks winning/losing record putting CV as starter


Can somebody do a tally on that? Would be interesting to know.

[DH34Phan]

Bucks winning/losing record putting Yi as starter

-vs-


Bucks winning/losing record putting CV as starter


Can somebody do a tally on that? Would be interesting to know.

5-9 with Villanueva as a starter.

18-31 with Yi as a starter.

Pretty much the same winning percentage.

[MickeyDavis]

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You think it's inconceivable that he could turn himself into an average defender?

That's the million, or in CV's case, several million dollar question. He's shown no inclination whatsoever in 3 years to play and defense. You would think a possible contract extension this summer would motivate him but it hasn't.

[MajorDad]

I like wha t i see. CV is playing nice. the Bucks keep losing although looking decent in doing so so their tanking is not as obvious.

I would think if they keep it up, they should have a nice lottery pick, and also a lot of teams inquiring about CV and Yi. it's a nice position to be in.

J O'neal will be on the block.

The draft looks heavily guard oriented.

it shapes up to be an exciting off season - assuming the Bucks hire a GM and then allow him to actually be able to do his job.

[Johnny Newman]

I like CV. But I think he's the next Shareef Abdur Rahim. Pats his stats nightly if given enough shots and minutes. But where ever he plays his team fails.

[fam3381]

His offense skillset is already top notch, if we can get some defense in him, we are looking at a very valuable player.

It's worth the try, IMO, as CV is the most talented player on this team.

Unlike most bigs, the best part of his game is how he can face up, drive and hit runners and tough in-between shots. You see him do that sort of stuff and think wow, this guy has a lot of talent. Surely if he can do the more basic stuff then he can be a very nice player...

Yet at the end of the day he doesn't draw fouls, doesn't shoot a respectable percentage from the field, and you never know if he's going to show up or not. So his greatest strength--offensive talent--really hasn't translated into reliable scoring, and his defense is bad and has never shown any signs of improvement.

It's certainly not to say Yi is a sure thing either, but I think in general CV flatters to deceive. He's seemingly played well since the all-star break, yet he's also shooting a disgusting 38% from the field in that period. Hopefully his flashes of offensive brilliance convince someone he's worth a gamble, because I just don't see him as a long-term solution for us.

[kebzach]

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You think it's inconceivable that he could turn himself into an average defender?

Yes, that is correct. He's never shown anybody on any team any inclination that he would be interested in becoming a true all-around player, or at least an average all-around player that excels on offense.