Bianchi: John Weisbrod Deserves Some Credit

[maginno]

That was very inspiring, but it wasn't meant to be a discussion. I'm going to Amsterdam tomorrow, and I don't have the time to deal with your Napoleon complex. Danka Well!

uh huh wasn't so at 6:30 today though was it? Even in your digs you don't make sense. anyway happy to see you go man.

[mhectorgato]

Yeah so... Hedo is having a nice season eh?

Yeah ... but let's not give Weis any credit though.

[craig01]

-= original quote snipped =-



Check one:

_____ pun intended

or

_____ no pun intended

Not answering.........lol

[craig01]

Yeah so... Hedo is having a nice season eh?

Yeah, he is. In fact, Hedo was a legitimate all star candidate.

[Turkey Dance]

Weisbrod got us Hedo and Dwight. Those two moves have made this franchise great.

However, some of his other bright ideas could have just as easily ruined it all.

[richboy]

Don't know about that ... he's not scoring much from the bench.

Has he ever played 98% of the games in a season? No.
How about 95%? No.
Ok how about 92? No.
Well has ever played 90% No.

The best he did was 2 seasons ago was 87.8% when he played 72 games. If he had only one season were didn't didn't most of the games, then it would be different. He has a history of being injury prone.

And when you're injured, you're on the bench, and when you're on the bench you're extremely easy to guard.

54 - 28 missed/DNPCD (rookie)
47 - 35 missed/DNPCD
37 - 45 missed/DNPCD
70 - 12 missed
55 - 27 missed
72 - 10 missed

How many has he missed this season already?

14 and counting.

Seems like your way overstating the Wallace injuries. He wasn't even a rotation player with the Kings so why showcase the games he missed there. He played 3 seasons since coming from the Kings. He played over 70 games twice.

Its not like Rashard Lewis was the iron man. Rashard had missed 40 games over the last 2 seasons. Rashard had multiple seasons and history of shoulder problems Gwallace 3 seasons as a rotation player and 2 of them over 70 games is not actually saying don't dare sign me.

LOL so now were are combining total production from 2 players on different teams to one in another team. Why dont you combine team records as well lol. Come on man you can do better than that.

Not really sure what your point is. The fact is were talking about making the most out of your money. The fact that 2 guys combined make as much as Rashard but each can be considered compariable players isn't important to you I guess.

No doubt that Wallace would be an interesting addition to the team. But assuming that we got Wallace and (Nocioni or Kapono) as some suggested - and Battie went down.

Wallace really wouldn't have to play the 4 spot. Nocioni is truly a undersized pf that can slide over to SF. Yet he a very good perimeter defender.

His numbers from 82games at the PF spot are 37% of the time spent there with a team net of -44 points. Whereas Rashard's are 69% and +272 respectively. (not that I think Rashard is an amazing PF).

Not sure why you put these numbers. Rashard a plus 272 because the Magic are a much better team than the Cats.

[mhectorgato]

Seems like your way overstating the Wallace injuries. He wasn't even a rotation player with the Kings so why showcase the games he missed there. He played 3 seasons since coming from the Kings. He played over 70 games twice.

Its not like Rashard Lewis was the iron man. Rashard had missed 40 games over the last 2 seasons. Rashard had multiple seasons and history of shoulder problems Gwallace 3 seasons as a rotation player and 2 of them over 70 games is not actually saying don't dare sign me.

That's why I put DNPCD in his first seasons.

Ok let's ignore the past.

How many games has Lewis missed this season?
How many games has Wallace missed this season?

Not sure why you put these numbers. Rashard a plus 272 because the Magic are a much better team than the Cats.

But those are differential points at the PF position, which are separate from team standings. It shows while on the floor at that position, how many points he scored vs how many he gave up. I didn't put the W/L % when he plays the spot because that's a team number. He gives up more points than he scored at that position.

OK so we put Noc there instead:
07-08 23% of the time at the PF for -46 net points.
06-07 27% and +45 (used these numbers because he's not getting many minutes this season).

Do we even want to see what the Net numbers would be for Kapono at the 4?

*waits for "This isn't about stats but how he is playing" or "That stats don't matter. His overall play matters"*

BTW - 6'11 >> 6'7 at the 4 spot.

[richboy]

That's why I put DNPCD in his first seasons.

Ok let's ignore the past.

How many games has Lewis missed this season?
How many games has Wallace missed this season?

Were discussing circumstances before the season. To say something after the fact is meaningless. Unless your suggesting that Otis knew that Rashard would play most of the season. I guess he is psychic. That Gerald would miss games therefore Rashard was worth the double price tag. Despite the fact Rashard had missed more games than Gerald over the past 2 seasons. No one is ignoring the past. Seems like your focused on Gerald injury past and just ignored Rashard's.

But those are differential points at the PF position, which are separate from team standings. It shows while on the floor at that position, how many points he scored vs how many he gave up. I didn't put the W/L % when he plays the spot because that's a team number. He gives up more points than he scored at that position.

OK so we put Noc there instead:
07-08 23% of the time at the PF for -46 net points.
06-07 27% and +45 (used these numbers because he's not getting many minutes this season).

Do we even want to see what the Net numbers would be for Kapono at the 4?

*waits for "This isn't about stats but how he is playing" or "That stats don't matter. His overall play matters"*

BTW - 6'11 >> 6'7 at the 4 spot.

You completely miss the point. Net points refer to what the Magic +- is with Rashard at PF. Not what he does at PF.

For example last year Rashard had a negative net at SF. Yet he outscored the SF by 6 points per 48 minutes. Rashard's negative 87 net from a year ago reflects the Sonics play while he played SF. His plus 59 does the same at PF.

Put it this way. Rajon Rondo would not be a plus 440 if he didn't play on the Celtics. He hasn't outscored any point guards by 440 points as he been outscored at the actual position. Perhaps Keith Bogans is a plus 218 at SG. Which would make him a whole lot better than Michael Redd.

Just for note know one has ever talked about Kapano playing 4.

Plus it seems like your suggesting Otis wanted Rashard to play PF. Which would go against the whole he still wanted Darko but his agent blew it theory. Plus why no one told this to Grant Hill. Otis obviously gave him the impression that Rashard was brought in to play Sf.

[mhectorgato]

You completely miss the point. Net points refer to what the Magic +- is with Rashard at PF. Not what he does at PF.

Sorry. Look at the site, the title for the player position page:

"Player Floor Time Stats by Position"

This is there differential while that player is on the floor.

[richboy]

Yes I know what your looking at. If you haven' t noticed all the Magic that play significant minutes do well.

http://www.82games.com/0708/07ORL2C.HTM +90 arroyo
http://www.82games.com/0708/07ORL8C.HTM +281 Hedo
http://www.82games.com/0708/07ORL3C.HTM +51 Dooling
http://www.82games.com/0708/07ORL5C.HTM +218 Bogans
http://www.82games.com/0708/07ORL16C.HTM +389 Dwight

Add it all up and the Magic would be beating there opponents by 25 a night.

[mhectorgato]

Yes I know what your looking at.

Then why do you claim is team based?

If you haven' t noticed all the Magic that play significant minutes do well.

http://www.82games.com/0708/07ORL2C.HTM +90 arroyo
http://www.82games.com/0708/07ORL8C.HTM +281 Hedo
http://www.82games.com/0708/07ORL3C.HTM +51 Dooling
http://www.82games.com/0708/07ORL5C.HTM +218 Bogans
http://www.82games.com/0708/07ORL16C.HTM +389 Dwight

Add it all up and the Magic would be beating there opponents by 25 a night.

Wait so ... the stats don't count?

A good majority of your arguments are based on stats, and now they are not to be trusted?

Oh that's right:

This isn't about stats but how he is playing

That stats don't matter. His overall play matters

Again, the discussion is if we signed Wallace + who ever and Battie went down, would Wallace play PF? Would he be as effective as Rashard?

Again Mr Stats, Rashard scores more than he gives up at the 4, verses how Wallace gives up more points than scores.

If Noc was used as you suggested - then we're 4 points in the hole a game on average vs how Rashard plays the 4.

And Wallace would be on the bench in a suit with his 4th concussion in 4 years. But no, you're right, he's not injury prone.

I'm done with this ... as you like to go both ways: stats count when they help your case, and when they don't you want to ignore them.

[maginno]

-= original quote snipped =-



Again, the discussion is if we signed Wallace + who ever and Battie went down, would Wallace play PF? Would he be as effective as Rashard?

Don't know if Rich has raised the issue but I certainly did that evaluating any player on the basis of him having to play out of position because a team is poorly constructed is nonsense. Even a discussion that is hypothetical in nature has to take some basic logic into account. If Otis found himself without the blinding haze of having to sign rashard to the MAX then I think yes he would have considered the PF slot and maybe he doesn't sign the players being discussed.

Any which way calling for The stats for a player at one position to determine what he would do at at another position is pointless. You will just go back and forth. In the end Rich's point is Overall VERY WELL taken. What Rashard supplies can be duplicated with pieces that most importantly would be alot more tradeable than Shard. This isn't a championship team and that kind of contract ties up too much cap and trade assets.

Its the consensus shared by an overwhelming majority of NBA fans, Gms and media and only objected to by those mainly based in Orlando. So as such it is much more than suspect and even by popularity votes Rich easily wins the point by a landslide.

[mhectorgato]

Don't know if Rich has raised the issue but I certainly did that evaluating any player on the basis of him having to play out of position because a team is poorly constructed is nonsense.

ADD? Stay on point. The reality is that Battie got injured after the off-season.

So the discussion of who rich thought we should have signed instead of Rashard (Wallace + Kapono/Noc) playing out of position is certainly based in reality.

The discussion has been:

How would the Magic fare, given Battie went down, with Rashard playing out of position vs Wallace or Hedo or Noc or Kapono playing the 4, out of position.

Any which way calling for The stats for a player at one position to determine what he would do at at another position is pointless.

But it's the reality of the situation we find ourselves in. Had we signed Wallace + other, someone on the roster would be playing the 4, even if they are out of position, as Rashard is.

You will just go back and forth.

As with many conversations with several posters - before the martyr comes out, it's more than just you two. There are a couple other posters that will never yield.

In the end Rich's point is Overall VERY WELL taken. What Rashard supplies can be duplicated with pieces that most importantly would be alot more tradeable than Shard.

That's why we're comparing how the team would be now, if we signed the guys he said we should have.

[MagicalMan]

That was very inspiring, but it wasn't meant to be a discussion. I'm going to Amsterdam tomorrow, and I don't have the time to deal with your Napoleon complex. Danka Well!

Have fun. I want to go there but my wife is against the idea. I might have to convince her to take separate vacations some year. I mostly want to see Europe for historical reasons, and she'd rather lay on a beach.

[mhectorgato]

Have fun. I want to go there but my wife is against the idea. I might have to convince her to take separate vacations some year. I mostly want to see Europe for historical reasons, and she'd rather lay on a beach.

They have beaches in Europe.

[maginno]

The reality is that Battie got injured after the off-season. e.

and the reality is that it was your GM who made the moves this offseason to only have a 32 year old PF to play the position .

You cannot possibly know how anyone would play the PF who doesn't play it. Stats at one position won't help you to determine with any specificity what a player would do at another position. So you can argue one way and Rich can argue the other way. You might as well argue how Dwight would do at Sg or rashard would do at center. None present stats will help either one of you.

Just common sense

Which leaves you with Rich's overall point agreed to by most everyone outside of Orlando that signing Rashard to the max was a bad move for the Magic.

[mhectorgato]

-= original quote snipped =-



and the reality is that it was your GM who made the moves this offseason to only have a 32 year old PF to play the position .

You cannot possibly know how anyone would play the PF who doesn't play it. Stats at one position won't help you to determine with any specificity what a player would do at another position. So you can argue one way and Rich can argue the other way. None present stats will help either one of you.

Just common sense

Which leaves you with Rich's overall point agreed to by most everyone outside of Orlando that signing Rashard to the max was a bad move for the Magic.

Again, it's out the of the scope of the conversation to say which other player would be better.

It's how would we have faired had we signed Wallace + Kapono/Noc vs Rashard.

PLEASE try to stay on topic.

You might as well argue how Dwight would do at Sg or rashard would do at center.

Would there ever be a realistic situation where Dwight would start for an entire season at SG? NO

Would there ever be a realistic situation where Shard would start at Center for an entire season? NO

Would there ever be a realistic situation where Shard would start at PF? YES.

Had we signed Wallace + Noc/Kapono, would one of them instead be starting at the PF? Possibly

Had we signed Wallace + Noc/Kapono, would Hedo instead be starting at PF? Possibly.

This is why I've been saying : Please try to stay on topic. My discussion with Rich has been how would the team be now if the people he said we should have signed instead of Rashard would be here now.


If you want a different discussion, then start a new discussion thread, instead of trying to take this conversation down a different road.

[MagicalMan]

-= original quote snipped =-



They have beaches in Europe.

Ive raised that point. But the entire vacation wouldnt be near the beach and thats her idea of relaxing.

Id really like to setup something like spinedoc and go out there with a few friends to have a good time. Only problem is everyone I associate with is uptight and wouldn't know how to let loose.

[mhectorgato]

Ive raised that point. But the entire vacation wouldnt be near the beach and thats her idea of relaxing.

Leave her at the beach on the Mediterranean and go see sights nearby

j/k I understand. If that's what she wants do then Europe is hardly cost effective for that.

I'm going over in August, and every day the Dollar drops lower and lower.

Id really like to setup something like spinedoc and go out there with a few friends to have a good time. Only problem is everyone I associate with is uptight and wouldn't know how to let loose.

They have brownies in Amsterdam that should help with that.

[MagicalMan]

-= original quote snipped =-



They have brownies in Amsterdam that should help with that.

Im sure I could persuade them into experimenting once there. The problem would be convincing them to go there in the first place. Its been a long time (like years) since ive done anything that would be available in Amsterdam, so I dont really associate with anyone who would understand the point of even going. But man, if I were to go there, I dont know if I would want to come back.

And partying isnt the only reason, id love just to see the architecture and some of the museums. I think it would be a great place to visit, but unfortunately theres that stigma involved, so the only way I would go would be to go alone