Replace Bill Russell with...

[magicfan4life05]

the op has some type of agenda against russell and is trying to discredit him for some reason.

first it was shaq vs. russell
http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=769086


where he tried to claim shaq had a better career over russell then quickly said never mind who was the better player lol

now ben wallace and camby vs russell?

whats next michael ruffin?

[That Nicka]

the op has some type of agenda against russell and is trying to discredit him for some reason.

first it was shaq vs. russell
http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=769086


where he tried to claim shaq had a better career over russell then quickly said never mind who was the better player lol

now ben wallace and camby vs russell?

whats next michael ruffin?

Because I think Shaq was a better player thats slain? Russell obviously had a better career with 11 championships, but that wasnt the comparison I was trying to make... Other posters said as well that they would take Shaq over Russell if it was purely "who was the better player"

But I do have a problem with Russell being called a "dominant" center... Really, how DOMINANT could a 6'9'' 215 guy be?? Especially in todays game... Sure he won rings, and that will never be taken away from him... Could you really see him dominating Duncan, Shaq, Dwight?? 215 pounds???? gimme a break

HOF? sure... 50 greatest ever? sure... But better than Wilt, Kareem, Shaq, Hakeem?? nahhhhh

[Ryoga Hibiki]

I Russell was born like 40 years later, he would have been different at least phisically, probably he would have been similar to someone like Amare or even Hakeem.
Nutrition and training can make a world of a difference, what we know is that he was a freakish natural athlete.

[ThaRegul8r]

But I do have a problem with Russell being called a "dominant" center... Really, how DOMINANT could a 6'9'' 215 guy be?? Especially in todays game... Sure he won rings, and that will never be taken away from him... Could you really see him dominating Duncan, Shaq, Dwight?? 215 pounds???? gimme a break

Are people really so dense that the thought doesn't even materialize in their minds that players in the past playing today would be using the same training techniques, would benefit from the same nutrition, etc., as everyone else and which didn't exist during their time?



It's not rocket science, it's common sense.

Yeesh! Are people even capable of thought, or are they too busy with their agendas in discrediting everyone who's not playing right now in order to big up their current favorites?

[TMU]

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uhm.. I never said Camby was stronger... I said he averages 14 rebounds in a league where opposing players are bigger/stronger/more athletic than players Russell faced

It may not even be a reach to say Camby is stronger... Russell was only 215 lbs (thats what he was listed at anyway)

Just because they are lighter doesn't necessarily mean they are weaker. Artis Gilmore only weighed 240 pounds but is considered one of the strongest players to ever play the game.

[That Nicka]

[quote="ThaRegul8r"][/quote]

Dude for real? just because he would be able to use the same training techniques and nutrition does not mean he would still be able to put up the same numbers... Your statement isnt any more provable than my belief Shaq would dominate Bill Russell in ANY era

[That Nicka]

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Just because they are lighter doesn't necessarily mean they are weaker. Artis Gilmore only weighed 240 pounds but is considered one of the strongest players to ever play the game.

Thats why I said it may not be a reach... They obviously never played together so it can go either way but I never said Camby was stronger than Russell, just that it is definitely possible... You were just putting words in my mouth

[TMU]

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Thats why I said it may not be a reach... They obviously never played together so it can go either way but I never said Camby was stronger than Russell, just that it is definitely possible... You were just putting words in my mouth

I will admit, that was a mistake on my part.

[ThaRegul8r]

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Dude for real? just because he would be able to use the same training techniques and nutrition does not mean he would still be able to put up the same numbers... Your statement isnt any more provable than my belief Shaq would dominate Bill Russell in ANY era

Are you for real? Did you not even remember what you said, which I was responding to?

But I do have a problem with Russell being called a "dominant" center... Really, how DOMINANT could a 6'9'' 215 guy be?? Especially in todays game... Sure he won rings, and that will never be taken away from him... Could you really see him dominating Duncan, Shaq, Dwight?? 215 pounds???? gimme a break

You said he couldn't be dominant based on his size, and especially in today's game. Where in your statement I quoted was anything said about numbers? Try to keep up. If Russell were playing today he wouldn't be the same size as then since he would have access to, and would be using, all the advancements which have taken place since he retired. Again, it's just common freaking sense.



His intelligence, understanding of the game, will to win, willingness to do whatever it takes for the team to win without ego getting in the way, and athleticism (do some research if you don't know), and yes, Russell would dominate today. That's the problem with people today. They look at solely numbers to the exclusion of anything else without putting them in any kind of context.

[NO-KG-AI]

FWIW, Russell was closer to 250 than 215 in his prime. And he's 6'9 in socks, much like Dwight Howard.

[That Nicka]

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You said he couldn't be dominant based on his size, and especially in today's game. Where in your statement I quoted was anything said about numbers? Try to keep up. If Russell were playing today he wouldn't be the same size as then since he would have access to, and would be using, all the advancements which have taken place since he retired. Again, it's just common freaking sense.



His intelligence, understanding of the game, will to win, willingness to do whatever it takes for the team to win without ego getting in the way, and athleticism (do some research if you don't know), and yes, Russell would dominate today. That's the problem with people today. They look at solely numbers to the exclusion of anything else without putting them in any kind of context.

Im not going to try to insult your intelligence, because your opinion is just as valid as mine... But youre basically doing the same thing I am by assuming that Russell would still dominate todays game with just our modern nutritional and training advancements....

Its my opinion that a 6'9'' defensive center can only "dominate" the game so much... How many 6'9'' centers have you seen in your lifetime that you can really call "dominant defensive stoppers"??? Ben Wallace was one, but he only lasted for so long.. And there was only so much he could do against players like Shaq, Yao and Duncan...

At the end of the day, Wallace was still a great defensive player... Maybe the best of our era, but when youre 6'9'' 280, there is only so much you can do against someone thats 7'1'' 330... Or 7'6'' and 320 for that matter


Edit: Alonzo Mourning was one as well.... His defense wasnt as good as Russells but his offense was far better (in his prime)... and imo he wasnt anymore dominant than Shaq, Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing etc..

[NO-KG-AI]

Ben Wallace's impact wasn't as a man defender though, it was protecting the rim, and disrupting things.

Bill Russell was like Wallace in that regard, but better, and was a man defender more like a Garnett.... long arms, great timing and leaping skills, excellent anticipation, and very underrated strength.

[That Nicka]

Ben Wallace's impact wasn't as a man defender though, it was protecting the rim, and disrupting things.

Bill Russell was like Wallace in that regard, but better, and was a man defender more like a Garnett.... long arms, great timing and leaping skills, excellent anticipation, and very underrated strength.

But KG is AT BEST the 3rd best PF all time... and thats with career averages of 20ppg on 50%... Russell's offense wouldnt be enough to make him a "dominant" player in todays game... certainly not top 3 center all time imo

[ThaRegul8r]

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Im not going to try to insult your intelligence, because your opinion is just as valid as mine... But youre basically doing the same thing I am by assuming that Russell would still dominate todays game with just our modern nutritional and training advancements....

Its my opinion that a 6'9'' defensive center can only "dominate" the game so much... How many 6'9'' centers have you seen in your lifetime that you can really call "dominant defensive stoppers"??? Ben Wallace was one, but he only lasted for so long.. And there was only so much he could do against players like Shaq, Yao and Duncan...

Russell was 6-9

[That Nicka]

Russell was 6-9

[That Nicka]

But I know that the casual fan won't be able to grasp this or appreciate it. The general fan also doesn't appreciate the player today who does what Russell did then

[ThaRegul8r]

I have never, ever heard of Hakeem being only 6'10... He was listed at 7' from the time he was drafted and even in college I believe... Unless you can show me something that states this or proves it, i simply do not believe this

I thought that was common knowledge by now. Hakeem himself admitted he wasn't really 7 foot. It sounded better to be able to say that had two seven-footers in the Twin Towers of himself and Ralph Sampson. Same thing with the Spurs' Twin Towers. Tim Duncan was originally listed at 7 ft, and everyone talked about the two seven footers, but now Duncan's listed as 6-11. Players listed heights aren't always their actual height. Some players have done it in the reverse, like Bill Walton not wanting to be listed as 7 foot to avoid the stigma of it, and Kevin Garnett doesn't either, and he's been jokingly called "6-13."

http://basketballreference.com/players/ ... =OLAJUHA01

I'll see if I can find more.

This is great support for showing Bill Russell could dominate today, because it shows someone with a similar frame and size can be successful against someone much bigger...

Which is why I love how people seem to have developed amnesia regarding that.

But I am somewhat skeptical... Did Dennis always guard Shaq (the entire game or just down the stretch)? Did Was Dennis still able to get his 18 rebounds? What were Shaqs numbers exactly? (If Shaq still had something like 24 and 10 on 8-18, that is great defense considering its Shaq, but those are still monster numbers)

Like I said, I'll have to find it. I saved them as proof for the "Russell couldn't compete today" debates, but I no longer have them now because it happened over a decade ago now. (Wow, it's been that long ago now?)

Defense is more than just rebounds and blocks though... Camby averages 14 and 4, but he is not a DOMINANT player... He's not even an All Star.. He wont make an All NBA team.... Ask Denver fans and they will tell you that Camby gets the emptiest 14 and 4 you have ever seen.. and doesnt want to leave the basket so he can block shots and grab all the rebounds... I dont doubt that Bill Russell would still be able to put up nice stats... But would he Dominate? I dont think he could, but again thats just my opinion

You miss the point. I was laying the groundwork and showing the precedent that Russell's size would not be a handicap today. Then with that done, the examples of Rodman and Olajuwon would show players his height who have dominated on the boards and defensively. But combine them together. That wouldn't be dominant? What's your definition of dominance? Does dominance only mean offense? The majority of fans seem to think so.

Im not saying youre right or wrong here but Camby and Ratliff are both listed at 235 lbs

Ratliff led the league in blocks in 2000-01, 2002-03, and 2003-04. At that time he was listed at 225. I wrote it down at that time. It is possible for a player to gain 10 pounds in four years. The source I saw listed Camby at 220. A Google check shows only a 100 hit difference between 220 and 235. Either way, the point was to give examples of current players of approximate size to refute the assertion that Russell's size would be a problem today, notwithstanding the fact he'd be able to use the same stuff everyone today uses.

Difference is Wilt grabbed all those boards while putting up 30+ ppg on 50%+...

So Wilt was no longer dominating when he stopped scoring 30+? In 1971-72 when the Lakers won a then-record 69 games, it was Wilt's rebounding and defense that enabled them to do what they did. In the Western Conference Finals against the Milwaukee Bucks, it was Wilt's defense on Kareem

[That Nicka]

I thought that was common knowledge by now. Hakeem himself admitted he wasn't really 7 foot. It sounded better to be able to say that had two seven-footers in the Twin Towers of himself and Ralph Sampson. Same thing with the Spurs' Twin Towers. Tim Duncan was originally listed at 7 ft, and everyone talked about the two seven footers, but now Duncan's listed as 6-11. Players listed heights aren't always their actual height. Some players have done it in the reverse, like Bill Walton not wanting to be listed as 7 foot to avoid the stigma of it, and Kevin Garnett doesn't either, and he's been jokingly called "6-13."

http://basketballreference.com/players/...=OLAJUHA01

I'll see if I can find more.

Ahh, I see, thanks for that... If its true that he's actually stated himself that hes 6'10'' then I obviously cant dispute that... I honestly never knew that

Which is why I love how people seem to have developed amnesia regarding that.

Like I said, I'll have to find it. I saved them as proof for the "Russell couldn't compete today" debates, but I no longer have them now because it happened over a decade ago now. (Wow, it's been that long ago now?)

LOL, I dont think I developed amnesia, I was a little kid back then.... If you ever dig those stats up, I would be very interested in seeing them

You miss the point. I was laying the groundwork and showing the precedent that Russell's size would not be a handicap today. Then with that done, the examples of Rodman and Olajuwon would show players his height who have dominated on the boards and defensively. But combine them together. That wouldn't be dominant? What's your definition of dominance? Does dominance only mean offense? The majority of fans seem to think so.

My definition of dominance is someone that is great offensively and defensively... Russell'd 15/22 was surely dominant... I just dont know that he would be able to do that today

So Wilt was no longer dominating when he stopped scoring 30+? In 1971-72 when the Lakers won a then-record 69 games, it was Wilt's rebounding and defense that enabled them to do what they did. In the Western Conference Finals against the Milwaukee Bucks, it was Wilt's defense on Kareem

[Heat3]

Wasn't Russell also the coach for some of the championships? Could any of the players listed fully replace Russell? I don't think so.

[NO-KG-AI]

Wasn't Russell also the coach for some of the championships? Could any of the players listed fully replace Russell? I don't think so.

For 2 of them.