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DwayneSchintzus
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Post#21 » by DwayneSchintzus » Fri Mar 14, 2008 2:13 pm

tsherkin wrote:Ah, the cop-out. Enjoy.


that is uncalled for. some of us don't have an inordinate amount of time to argue these things. i guess by your disposition you are happy to argue the color of the sky all day.

i myself, have already spent probably too much time in this thread. adios amigo!
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Post#22 » by johnnyjohnnyjohnny » Fri Mar 14, 2008 3:49 pm

BJ Armstrong or Pax were PG for the championship bulls teams, but both were often the 2nd or 3rd option to push the ball up the court with SF Pippen handling a large share of your typical 'PG' duties.

However, it is widely accepted that Pippen was a SF and you'll never hear anybody argue that he Pippen was a PG.

I think Okur is scared to death of stepping inside the 3pt lane or even knows how to find the 'paint' on offensive end of the floor, but you never hear arguments that he's a SG for that reason.

You cannot say that 'style of play' determines position because that is just not true. It may help, but it is not the dominant factor. Typically you attribute post scoring and high rebounding numbers to centers, but what happens when you bring in a David Robinson or Olajuwon who have outstanding mid-range jumpers? Or, a Dennis Rodman who would out rebound most taller players that he's gone against?

Honestly, this is as dumb an argument on this board as I've seen in a long time. Duncan starts at PF and often plays the C position. Duncan has many PF like qualities as well as C like qualities, therefore he plays both positions depending on the Spurs lineup at the time and the opponents lineup. Frankly, as a Spurs fan I don't care if he's 'listed' as a Referee as long as he continues to bring home the Championships.
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Post#23 » by conleyorbust » Fri Mar 14, 2008 7:51 pm

johnnyjohnnyjohnny wrote:Honestly, this is as dumb an argument on this board as I've seen in a long time. Duncan starts at PF and often plays the C position. Duncan has many PF like qualities as well as C like qualities, therefore he plays both positions depending on the Spurs lineup at the time and the opponents lineup. Frankly, as a Spurs fan I don't care if he's 'listed' as a Referee as long as he continues to bring home the Championships.


I don't think the point of the debate is where he is listed (well maybe it is, but that wasn't the original question). The point of the debate is, if we regard Duncan as a center is he still as highly regarded (in other words, does being the "greatest PF of all time" make him worse than being the "X greatest center"?).

In my opinion it doesn't denegrate his position because he led his team to four championships and is one of the greatest two way players in the history of the game and almost certainly the most dominant two way force since MJ retired.

Where would I rank him as a center? As I said, certainly behind Wilt and Kareem. From there it gets tougher...

Shaq was a more dominant offensive force but Duncan was easily the better defender, at this point you probably say Shaq but consider that Duncan still has a good 3-8 years to change that.

Hakeem was probably similarly effective on defense and a more explosive scorer but as of now their legacies are probably equal, and again Duncan has another few years to really stretch his legacy.

I put Duncan ahead of Russel because What Russel can usually hold over statistically superior players is his championship pedigree and Duncan has made a name for himself in that regard in this, more populated era.

The Admiral was great but even though he'd slowed by the time Duncan arrived, I can't in good faith put him above Duncan.

Last is Moses, the dominant center of the 80s, as a stylistic choice I'd take Duncan even though he wasn't as prolific of a scorer or offensive rebounder.

So my list (not including Mikan) would go:

Wilt/Kareem
Shaq
Hakeem/Duncan
Russell
Moses
Robinson

My guess is that Duncan furthers his legacy because he'll be 32 going into the next season and he'll still be a 7-footer with impeccable fundamentals, great timing, and super long arms which means he can be elite for quite a while longer.
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Post#24 » by johnnyjohnnyjohnny » Fri Mar 14, 2008 9:30 pm

If we're going to put him up against the great Centers, I'd rank him below Wilt, Kareem, Hakeem, Russell, Moses and Robinson.

I think it's all but impossible to definitively say who is the best and who is the second best when there are sooooo many variables in play. I prefer to rank by tier.

Tier 1. Wilt, Kareem, Russell
Tier 2. Hakeem, Robinson, Moses, Shaq
Tier 3. Duncan, Ewing

I just cannot say in good faith that Wilt was definitely better than Kareem or even that Hakeem was better than Robinson (and they shared the same floor on many nights). Actually, for those that really watched Shaq / Hakeem / Robinson when they were at their best, Hakeem and Robinson were almost interchangeable. Both players had post game as well as a decent mid-range jumper for a big man. Both were outstanding defenders, rebounders and were deceptively quick. Shaq did not have the defense of a Hakeem or Robinson, he did not have the shooting range or the quickness. However, he was literally unstoppable getting the ball in the low paint.

Despite the many championships, I do not think Duncan is on the same level as Hakeem, Shaq or Robinson... and frankly I'm not sure if he has it in him. Those guys in their primes set the stat sheets on fire. I do not think that the '95 Rockets would be better off with Duncan, nor do I think the '93 Spurs would be. I do, however feel that Today's Spurs would be better if you replaced Duncan with Hakeem or Robinson. Duncan is good in almost every aspect of the game, and he has very few weaknesses. He is just not as good as some of the others.

For the record, I am a HUGE Spurs fan. Always have been, always will be. I am by no means knocking Duncan. He is actually my current favorite player.
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Post#25 » by conleyorbust » Fri Mar 14, 2008 9:42 pm

^Thats fair. The more I look at it, I can't put Moses ahead of Duncan for statisitical reasons. He was a force to be reckoned with but he wasn't nearly the passer or defender that Duncan was and was only a marginally more prolific scorer for the balance of his career (especially when he was on teams as good as Duncan's).

Again, I just can't put him below Robinson because Robinson played off of Duncan without really changing his game (meaning Duncan was the easier guy to build around).

I can't say which was more dominant, Shaq's offense of Duncan's defense but for now I'll give the edge to Shaq. Like I said though, Duncan could eventually pass him.

I don't know about Hakeem, I often waffle on where I want to put him. His teams weren't as consistently dominant as Duncan's, he didn't have the same team and he certainly had more blocks and steals but his teams didn't always have that ridiculously smothering D.
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Post#26 » by tsherkin » Sat Mar 15, 2008 12:11 am

DW Rutledge wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



that is uncalled for. some of us don't have an inordinate amount of time to argue these things. i guess by your disposition you are happy to argue the color of the sky all day.


You've already proven willing to make the time to participate in the thread with what time you have on the forums, even if such time is limited. Leaving now will not be graceful, it will necessarily be a cop-out. Justify to yourself how you like, it's not my problem, but rather an issue of semantics.

Cheers!

FWIW, I agree with conley re: Duncan/Moses.

Regarding Hakeem, I think he's definitely a step above Duncan because he routinely lacked the kind of roster assistance, coaching talent and upper management support enjoyed by the Spurs and still managed to make Houston into a dynamite team and win a couple of titles, including one where his roster was just ridiculously undertalented compared to his competition.

Then again, both Hakeem and Duncan are guys I consider at least borderline top-10, so they can't be THAT far apart. Dream was a more prolific scorer in his prime and certainly much more talented at attacking double- and triple-teams but Duncan is more conventional in his approach, has a different pace, exerts a different defensive pressure, etc.

That'd be an interesting comparison.

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