GT: CLE @ WAS -- 3/13/2008

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Maybe I'll just turn out to be worried about nothing. I hope so.

It IS the week or two from now that I'm concerned about jim. That's when the heavy minutes and heavy legs make a guy vulnerable.

Caron probably feels good right now. I'd wager that at no time in the game did he just want to quit. That's not the point, though.

I know from personal experience (ruptured achilles 5 months ago, walking/limping but with pain most days--with much rehab to do. I have physical therapy today BTW) you can be feeling real good right when your injury occurs. The body can be fatigued and tears can occur.

This thing with Butler was SERIOUS and potentially debilitating. I think he should be eased back in no matter how good he looks or feels. I know myself that we can be our own worst enemy physically when we try and do too much too soon.

jim, I suspect you've stayed in good condition and been relatively injury-free.

I see Caron as closer to injury-prone.

[dobrojim]

Maybe I'll just turn out to be worried about nothing. I hope so.

It IS the week or two from now that I'm concerned about jim. That's when the heavy minutes and heavy legs make a guy vulnerable.

Caron probably feels good right now. I'd wager that at no time in the game did he just want to quit. That's not the point, though.

I know from personal experience (ruptured achilles 5 months ago, walking/limping but with pain most days--with much rehab to do. I have physical therapy today BTW) you can be feeling real good right when your injury occurs. The body can be fatigued and tears can occur.

This thing with Butler was SERIOUS and potentially debilitating. I think he should be eased back in no matter how good he looks or feels. I know myself that we can be our own worst enemy physically when we try and do too much too soon.

jim, I suspect you've stayed in good condition and been relatively injury-free.

I see Caron as closer to injury-prone.

I'm not sure the injury was as serious as you state. A ruptured
achilles is WAY more serious. His injury was something that
was probably extremely painful, but apparently, just needed
rest to heal. It appears they were conservative after the initial
set-back and missed diagnosis (not an indictment of incompetence
on the part of the Docs).

I've been more or less injury free since I started wearing orthotics.
It's made all the difference in the world for me. I previously suffered
chronic achilles tendonitis and then possibly made it worse by
routine use of NSAIFs (ibuprofen). Now I rarely if ever use NSAIFs.
They do relieve pain, but if used routinely/chronicly, slow healing
and recovery. All that above - knock on wood. In 5 weeks I'll
be hopefully completing my 10th consecutive Boston Marathon.
Woo-hoo! Not bad for an old fart (which actually works in my favor
since the qualification stds for Boston are age-graded).

[ZonkertheBrainless]

From what I understand, he has been playing with this torn labrum his entire career and it just got inflamed. If the rest causes the swelling to go down then he is basically as good as new...

[Spence]

Is that why the coach promised the GM that he would "watch his minutes"?

That seemed like a joke to me, especially when you consider what EJ said right after that. Obviously, EJ had no problem playing Caron 41 minutes and Caron never asked to come out.

The ends do not justify the means.

Actually, in pro sports, the end usually does justify the means. That seems to me to be one of the clearest lessons anyone could take from watching pro sports.

You can't tell me that a doc specializing in sports medicine would recommend that a player coming off an injury play the most minutes of anyone on the team.

I have no idea what the team medical staff said re Caron [neither do you], but if he was cleared to play and didn't have any discomfort from playing 41 minutes, I don't see what the problem is. I also don't see why the amount of time played by Caron's teammates is relevant to this discussion.

[calibanPK]

Good game guys! I love Butler and it really didn't even seem like he had an injury. When is Arenas coming back?? Hopin to see Cavs vs Wizards again in playoffs, should be a great series which will def go to 7. Who wins? Who knows. You guys bring it every time we play eachother, which only adds to the excitement. GOD WHY CANT THE PLAYOFFS START NEXT WEEK!!!?!?!? Good luck with rest of season and stay clear of injuries! The injuries make people underrate our teams, which I guess is good if we get everyone healthy for the playoffs. WOO 1 more month!

[nate33]

The ends do not justify the means.

Actually, in pro sports, the end usually does justify the means. That seems to me to be one of the clearest lessons anyone could take from watching pro sports.

I don't know why, but something about this exchange just cracked me up.

[TheKingOfVa360]

Good game guys! I love Butler and it really didn't even seem like he had an injury. When is Arenas coming back?? Hopin to see Cavs vs Wizards again in playoffs, should be a great series which will def go to 7. Who wins? Who knows. You guys bring it every time we play eachother, which only adds to the excitement. GOD WHY CANT THE PLAYOFFS START NEXT WEEK!!!?!?!? Good luck with rest of season and stay clear of injuries! The injuries make people underrate our teams, which I guess is good if we get everyone healthy for the playoffs. WOO 1 more month!

a classy Cavs fan thanks and good luck to you too

[closg00]

-= original quote snipped =-

I have no idea what the team medical staff said re Caron [neither do you], but if he was cleared to play and didn't have any discomfort from playing 41 minutes, I don't see what the problem is. I also don't see why the amount of time played by Caron's teammates is relevant to this discussion.

"I promised Ernie I'd watch Caron's minutes," Jordan joked. "I watched all 41 of them."

A relieved Grunfeld replied: "We'll talk about it [today]."

We don't need to know what the team docs said exactly, the GM's concern as noted in the quote is sufficient. Caron's minutes were discussed today with EJ. The Wizards being the exception, players coming back from injuries usually don't log the most minutes, they are are incorporated back into the lineup.

As an aside, it is very interesting to note that EJ apparently ignores his boss's wishes. First notably during the Cavs series when EJ inexplicably allowed Z to abuse us while he sat Haywood for long stretches, and now ignoring Ernie's concerns that Caron's minutes be watched coming off of an injury.

Let's hope the Caron & Gilbert are completely healthy come playoffs.

[yungal07]

So whats your point? That you'd rather see the team lose than have Caron play 41 minutes?

I don't see the problem. The Wiz won the game. Butler is fine. He didn't want to come out. These are pros, not babies. If Caron doesn't feel he can play, or if he was an obvious detriment to the team on the court, he wouldn't play.

[omegatronic3]

very nice win!!! We got a bit lucky but hey we played way better D down the stretch than we have in the past. Stevenson did a good job of making Lebron
shoot a long shot. I think LeBron was thinking about the charge on the previous posession. Plus I love the Deshawn is hitting the 3 but not forcing anything else! Seems like he's molding himself after a bruce bowen type guy.

Meanwhile Butler is the Elton Brand of small forwards. He's way undersized but his wingspan is rediculous. I'd like to know what he was measured at cos
its gotta be well over 7' . Nick Young also is a knuckle dragger. Tose two along with Blache and Haywood make up the all wingspan team. That length definitely helps on the defensive end.

Young was out of control a few times but otherwise I liked what I saw. I thought Andre also made a great contribution with his all around play....good hands and good passing.

If we had a back to for Arenas we could be a tough out in the playo

[fugop]

Meanwhile Butler is the Elton Brand of small forwards. He's way undersized but his wingspan is rediculous. I'd like to know what he was measured at cos its gotta be well over 7' . Nick Young also is a knuckle dragger. Tose two along with Blache and Haywood make up the all wingspan team. That length definitely helps on the defensive end.

Butler's wingspan is not particularly long. His pre-draft measurements:

6'5.25" height, w/o shoes, 6'6.5" with shoes.
6'11.5" wingspan
8'7.5" standing reach

http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-dra ... ft=0&sort=

Compare that to Josh Howard, who is a legit "knuckle dragger"

6'5.25" height, w/o shoes, 6'6.5" with shoes.
7'2" wingspan
8'9.5" standing reach

http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-dra ... ft=0&sort=

Nick Young:

6'5" height, w/o shoes, 6'6.75" with shoes (those are some big shoes)
7'0" wingspan
8'4.5" standing reach

http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-dra ... ft=0&sort=

[ZonkertheBrainless]

Looks like Caron's standing reach is about the same as Howards. Isn't that what counts?

[doclinkin]

Looks like Caron's standing reach is about the same as Howards. Isn't that what counts?

A 2" difference in standing reach is a big difference, proportionally speaking. We're usually looking at quarter inch differences here. Caron's reach is definitely on the high end for a guy measuring 6'5 and a quarter. His reach compares well with most forwards. In his case it comes not just from long arms, but from huge hands--one reason why his ball controll is so good when in the air and taking contact. Takes nothing away from him that in terms of arm ratio Josh Howard is basically a gibbon. That reach is just reeeedonkulous.

The Wingspan measure matters most in terms of choking off passing lanes, etc. A large part of this measure is torso thickness, shoulder span. This is where Caron shows up large for his height. Look at it this way, Caron is closer to the wingspan of say Chris Kaman than he is to any guard. You won't find many 6'5" guys with a wingspan larger. He's in the top percentile.

I'm a bit surprised Nick Young doesn't have a longer reach, that looks like a mismeasure to me. Not the fault of the measurers, just that Nick Young is a bit slouchy and doesn't really uncoil his full nose-to-claw-tip velociraptor length until he is in the act of pouncing. His shoulders aren't terribly wide for his height, his wingspan is mostly arm (Noodles, and all that). One thing is, by constrast to CB3, Youngin doesn't have silly size on his hand span, one reason why the ball slips in his hands while he's trying to dunk in traffic.

(Though Dominic MacGuire claims it's because he's ashy. Says he's the ashiest man on earth. The ball just slides off those dry hands and dead skin).

'Far as Caron's minutes. Yeah Hubbard said they intended not to play him as many minutes, but lost track of it in going for the win. Said they'll keep him out of practice, give him light duty and try to do better watching the minutes in the future.

Caron was gassed at the end, still needs to get his legs back, which you can only do with actual playtime. If it weren't +*&#ing cleveland, in a game where we won by one possession, I'd've been more willing to risk a loss by benching Caron late. But his first half success made them gameplan to guard him in the second half, so even as a decoy he was useful out there. And a player is more likely to injure themselves if they play scared, try to adjust, I don't mind CB out there doing what he does so long as he still feels good.

Shoot, I don't mind the win, tell you that much. F--- LeBron.