Bargnani over everyone? Maybe not ROY or Gay?

[Carnage]

Alright so both of you guys are saying that Bargnani has to develop his game so that he can operate from the elbow (like Dirk for example) but until then he shouldn't be given the opportunity.

Ok, so how does he develop his game again? Let me guess. By practicing twice a week in between games.

I can't speak for Harry, but I don't think he will ever noticeably improve in the areas I listed (defense, rebounding, ability to create his own shot, etc).

He should be given playing time because suffice to say, the Raptors don't have many options in the front court (Rasho is now a 15-20 mpg guy). My contention is to put him on the trading block and see what you can fetch. I believe Colangelo is a smart GM, and will be able to extract full value of a former (albeit not as good) #1 overall pick.

[Carnage]

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You can cherry pick 3 games where Bargs played well, where as I'll continue to base my opinion on the other 100+ games.

Exactly, by the logic that MikeM/TJ11/Other Bargnani lovers use, one can say that Stromile Swift is an all-star waiting to happen because he's had his fair share of good games over his career, but as we know he isn't that good.

[Joker]

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Seriously, this is nothing. TJ11 has, on many many occassions, made some version of this argument: 'if you only count the games where he played well, he played well.'

I think people fail to realize that 90% of being good is consistency. A great occasional game or string of games should be taken with a grain of salt.

I made that mistake with Charlie V's 48 point game in his rookie season. It can be seductive, but you could call it fool's gold to base any conclusions off of any specific performance.

[MikeM]

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Exactly, by the logic that MikeM/TJ11/Other Bargnani lovers use, one can say that Stromile Swift is an all-star waiting to happen because he's had his fair share of good games over his career, but as we know he isn't that good.

Using your logic, very few players shouldn't even be drafted because they're not good NBA players.

No one's arguing whether Bargnani's good right now. It's whether he can become a good player that is up for debate.

[Harry Palmer]

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I think people fail to realize that 90% of being good is consistency. A great occasional game or string of games should be taken with a grain of salt.

Agreed. I think there is some value to looking at flashes or occasional games when your scope is necessarily limited, like say 10 or 20 games into a rookie season. Not so much in terms of what a guy will do, but at least in terms of getting a handle on what he can do.

But once the scope gets bigger than that, what he does becomes much, much more important. Because the league is littered with guys who can do things...many of them can do more things than Bargnani...but the guys who are players are the guys who do it, and do it often.

And it's not like he's a teenager or anything. One irony I find about the 'experience' argument used to defend him is that it is a complete 180 on the argument many used to draft him; his professional experience was, it was often argued, something that would give him a head start over other prospects of comparable ability.

Now it's a reason those players are ahead of him.

[Harry Palmer]

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Using your logic, very few players shouldn't even be drafted because they're not good NBA players.

I don't understand what you are saying here.

No one's arguing whether Bargnani's good right now. It's whether he can become a good player that is up for debate.

I disagree on the first part, and we all see the second part, just some of us connect 'what he can become' to 'what he is doing now' more than others.

[RapsVC15]

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I think people fail to realize that 90% of being good is consistency. A great occasional game or string of games should be taken with a grain of salt.

..and when a sophomore nonetheless displays little of it, it's the end of the world!

I'm sorry what I'm I thinking, every player that steps foot in the league should be a finished product.

[Schad]

Those guys aren't Centers!

This is my point! Why is Bargnani being asked to drive from behind the arc? Of course he's going to look bad. He's a 7 footer driving from 25 feet out!

We have covered this on the Raptors board. Bargs typically sets the screen for our pick-and-roll offense, and the pick-and-roll is a reaction-based play; it's at the discretion of the players involved to determine, after the initial screen, where to go.

It would be entirely impossible for the coach to dictate whether the screener is going to the basket or popping into space, because that is dependent on the result of the screen (defense switches, or traps the ball-handler, or the screen fails and the match-ups remain the same). Smitch isn't screaming at Bargs to float to the top of the arc and wave his hand for the ball; that's Bargs' decision. As Harry mentioned, he's not much for reacting quickly, so he simply goes with what he knows...meandering out to 25 feet from the basket, and waving hello to the point guard.

Watch Rasho set picks for Calderon and witness just how much variation you can get from that one play, when you have two capable and intelligent players involved. Rasho has the mobility of Everest, but the guy sets great picks, and rolls hard to the lane or floats to 18 ft. depending on the reaction of the defense. If Bargs did the same, he would suddenly find an array of new and interesting options. Thus far, he isn't so inclined.

Heh, and this is an interesting wrinkle...if you can't get Harry to the Raps board, bring the Raps board to Harry.

[Carnage]

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Using your logic, very few players shouldn't even be drafted because they're not good NBA players.

No one's arguing whether Bargnani's good right now. It's whether he can become a good player that is up for debate.

That's not the point. I used Swift as an example because similar to Bargnani was a top 3 pick (#2 I think) and had flashes of good games, but he lacked the consistency of good players. I think Bargnani's offensive game falls in the same category. Just because you were a top pick and have a few good games (in Bargnani's case offensively) once in a while, does not mean that you will be a star in this league.

As for his rebounding and defense, that I believe he will never make a noticeable improvement in.

[Joker]

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Agreed. I think there is some value to looking at flashes or occasional games when your scope is necessarily limited, like say 10 or 20 games into a rookie season. Not so much in terms of what a guy will do, but at least in terms of getting a handle on what he can do.

But once the scope gets bigger than that, what he does becomes much, much more important. Because the league is littered with guys who can do things...many of them can do more things than Bargnani...but the guys who are players are the guys who do it, and do it often.

That's true. If I were to construct a graph, the value of consistency would start near zero and linearly increase as the player plays more games, and the value of flashes would start high and linearly decrease to eventually reach zero. Bargnani's close to reaching the point where flashes are meaningless.

[MikeM]

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I don't understand what you are saying here.

Joker and Carnage are saying Bargnani simply isn't that good right now. Ok. 90% of players that are drafted aren't "good" NBA players. They're drafted because of their potential.

You guys bringing up what Bargnani can't do in his 2nd season and using this as a measurement for how good he can become in the future tells me that you should apply the same logic to other young players.

[Joker]

I've also noticed that Bargnani's never had a great GAME. He's had great HALVES, but he's never had great games, and that's pretty telling. I don't think he's ever had a game where he's scored 13+ points in each half.

[Carnage]

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Joker and Carnage are saying Bargnani simply isn't that good right now. Ok. 90% of players that are drafted aren't "good" NBA players. They're drafted because of their potential.

You guys bringing up what Bargnani can't do in his 2nd season and using this as a measurement for how good he can become in the future tells me that you should apply the same logic to other young players.

It depends on what you consider a good player? If you consider Drew Gooden one, then yeah sure he'll be a good player. If you consider Pau Gasol a good player, then no he won't be a good player. I agree a vast majority of players are drafted on potential, but at some point potential will become meaningless. and thats what we are getting at here.

What Bargnani lacks are fundamentals (surprise considering European teams supposedly "stress" fundamentals), athletic ability and handles. His fundamentals are hurting him on the defensive side of the ball and hitting the boards. Athletic ability is contributing to his poor finishing ability at the rim, and his handles are holding him back from creating his own shot.

[MikeM]

[quote="Schadenfreude"][/quote]

Ya but Rasho can't shoot 3s, so it's detrimental to the offense as a whole and detrimental to the team if he floats out to the arc because his defender will just sag off him.

Sam wants to win games first and develop Bargnani last. I can't blame him for thinking that way but it's detrimental to the Raptors future because if they want to go anywhere they need Bargnani to become an impact player.

Draw up some Isos for him, have him coming off a screen, let him try out a post-up more than once every 2 games. Something!

You can't just expect a player to practice twice a week and suddenly develop a variety of moves.

[MikeM]

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It depends on what you consider a good player? If you consider Drew Gooden one, then yeah sure he'll be a good player. If you consider Pau Gasol a good player, then no he won't be a good player. I agree a vast majority of players are drafted on potential, but at some point potential will become meaningless. and thats what we are getting at here.

What Bargnani lacks are fundamentals (surprise considering European teams supposedly "stress" fundamentals), athletic ability and handles. His fundamentals are hurting him on the defensive side of the ball and hitting the boards. Athletic ability is contributing to his poor finishing ability at the rim, and his handles are holding him back from creating his own shot.

So you're saying he lacks fundamentals, athletic ability and handles? How was he even drafted at all lol?

Bargnani has dunked on people before just like he's been stuffed before. He's made more than a few reverse layups and he's thrown the ball straight off the glass before. He's hit step back jumpers and he's traveled trying to create his own shot.

This is what happens when you're a young player.

[RapsVC15]

I've also noticed that Bargnani's never had a great GAME. He's had great HALVES, but he's never had great games, and that's pretty telling. I don't think he's ever had a game where he's scored 13+ points in each half.

that's a new one.

[RapsVC15]

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I can't speak for Harry, but I don't think he will ever noticeably improve in the areas I listed (defense, rebounding, ability to create his own shot, etc).

He should be given playing time because suffice to say, the Raptors don't have many options in the front court (Rasho is now a 15-20 mpg guy). My contention is to put him on the trading block and see what you can fetch. I believe Colangelo is a smart GM, and will be able to extract full value of a former (albeit not as good) #1 overall pick.

that's quite the statement your making there,

it's too early to be making any sort of assertions regarding his future play, especially one with his skill set.

[C.Boshly]

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Draw up some Isos for him

Honestly what have you seen in Bargnani's game that suggests he would have success in isos?

An NBA head coach would have to be out of his mind to give call isos for Andrea Bargnani right now.

[Slotback]

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that's quite the statement your making there,

it's too early to be making any sort of assertions regarding his future play, especially one with his skill set.

I stand by what I said.

[candy for lunch]

No it's really not, but if he develops better help defense and rebounding (he already boxes out very well, he just needs to get more aggressive going after the ball) then he becomes an elite player and IMPACTS the game more than Gay or Roy. His potential to impact the game is above Roy or Gay.

I think you're seriously underestimating how much he has to improve his overall game in order to get on Roy's level.