Rank the 5 best playmakers who don't play as a PG's

[tsherkin]

Hmm..

Lebron, T-Mac and Kobe are my top-3.

T-Mac is less prone to turnovers than Bryant and is in general the better passer but the gap between them is not large and Kobe is a more dangerous scorer, which somewhat makes up for the technical gap in passing proficiency and such. It's a very tough call between the two of them but they are easily the 2nd and 3rd non-PG playmakers in the league.

It becomes difficult to rank the remainder, however; you have to at least mention the following players:

Joe Johnson, Kevin Garnett, Dwyane Wade and Brandon Roy.

And yeah, you can discuss Kirilenko, he's a pretty solid passer; you might mention Ginobili, Vince Carter, Hedo Turkoglu, Pierce, Iguodala, Boris Diaw...

And you even have to mention Dirk here for what he's doing this year as a passer.

[CB4MiamiHeat]

Hmm..

Lebron, T-Mac and Kobe are my top-3.

T-Mac is less prone to turnovers than Bryant and is in general the better passer but the gap between them is not large and Kobe is a more dangerous scorer, which somewhat makes up for the technical gap in passing proficiency and such. It's a very tough call between the two of them but they are easily the 2nd and 3rd non-PG playmakers in the league.

It becomes difficult to rank the remainder, however; you have to at least mention the following players:

Joe Johnson, Kevin Garnett, Dwyane Wade and Brandon Roy.

And yeah, you can discuss Kirilenko, he's a pretty solid passer; you might mention Ginobili, Vince Carter, Hedo Turkoglu, Pierce, Iguodala, Boris Diaw...

And you even have to mention Dirk here for what he's doing this year as a passer.

Im guessing you consider AI a PG since hes not listed

But what makes Lebron, Tmac, Kobe a step above someone like Roy or Wade.

[tsherkin]

-= original quote snipped =-



Im guessing you consider AI a PG since hes not listed

I do and he is... in the loosest of senses. He shoots too much for me to really think of him as a point guard, so I suppose I should include him. If I did, he'd be beneath the top-3.

But what makes Lebron, Tmac, Kobe a step above someone like Roy or Wade.

Wade's a very simplistic playmaker; he's got some fancy passing skills that he can bring out once and a while but really, he reminds me a lot of Stephon Marbury...

You know, if Marbury wasn't an idiot. He relies excessively on the drive-and-kick to get everything done, a lot like Iverson.

Lebron, Kobe and T-Mac are all considerably less turnover-prone, as well. Iverson, too, actually. Iverson would be above Wade in this category for me.

But yeah, the Big 3 separate themselves with efficiency, with the variety in which they create (in terms of type of passes, different angles they use, dominance over the whole floor, etc).

Wade basically creates out of the high midscreen and sometimes high sidescreens. He's got the handles to break anyone down, really, but he's not nearly as effective from the baseline or the low/mid/high post, etc, as these other guys. Kobe, Lebron and Tracy all evidence post passing skills that they have developed on account of height that the rest of those guys (besides Garnett) will never have. Wade could maybe turn himself into a Billups/Kidd/Baron style post-up guard if he wanted, he's certainly got the size, but these guys already have the gift of Sight.

Lebron has incredible vision, some of the best in the league and some of the best I've ever seen. He can see and make passes on a regular basis that make me think of Magic and Bird sometimes. With Wade and the others, it's rarely like that. He makes much more basic plays because he those are the kinds he sees.

Kobe and T-Mac are just much more skilled than Dwyane in basically every aspect of the game and passing is no different.

I don't want to come down on Wade, or seem to be slamming him; he's an excellent passer. So was Marbury and Wade is a much better decision-maker, which means he's a much more meaningful presence on the court than Marbz ever was and he's a legitimate superstar player.

But he'll never be a really great post passer and he doesn't have vision like the Big 3.

Does that help?

I'm not being very eloquent tonight, I'm exhausted from work and not describing this in very good detail. The Big 3 possess that almost indefinable trait, that je ne sais quo that separates them, which is a really lame way of saying they've got something that Wade and the others do not. It's vision, it's a wider range of starting spots, it's watching Lebron make himself a threat as soon as he hits his OWN three-point line the way Magic and Bird were, simply because they routinely throw that long alley-oop pass or the baseball passes and stuff, it's a lot of little things that just add up to them being better passers.

[farzi]

Nice to see Roy getting some love

[tsherkin]

Nice to see Roy getting some love

Surprised at love for the Tim Duncan of guards?

[CB4MiamiHeat]

I see your point with Lebron James, i agree hes a better playmaker..and i can also accept that Tracy McGrady is better.

I just dont agree that Kobe is a better playmaker than Wade, hes better at a lot of things..but not as a playmaker IMO..you could plug in Wade at PG on a team, but you cant do that with Kobe, it just wasnt natural when the tried it.

Yea hes turnover prone, but not all turnovers are passing ones. This is probably Wades worst season as a playmaker and even then his Assist/Turnover ratio this season is better than Kobe's assist/turnover ratio.

He ran the pick and roll with Haslem perfectly, he ran it with Blount this season. Hes set up so many open shots for guys like Alston, D. Jones, Jwill, Kapono, Posey...alleyoops for Wright, Shaq, Marion.

When he had a slow down defensive team he racked up assists...when he was sorrounded by scrubs this year with no shooters or post players he still racked up assists. i dont see how someone that creates so many open shots for others no matter how many different types of defense is thrown at him doesnt have vision.

[LiquidFire]

i agree, kobe isnt a very good playmakers.

[BruceO]

so far all i've seen is a list of star wing players. If we are talking about people who stuck in an offense enable the offense to run smoother, through passing and other actions I'd consider Caron( this might be a homer pick because I've watched him alot) I think the players who can play point forward like lamar, kirilenko, Diaw etc need to be considered. Also bigs like Gasol and Garnett who have good post passing would be on my list.

[Ace626]

Lol @ the people not having kobe to there list.
When the whole Lakers offense ( which arguable the best ) revolves around Kobe

[tsherkin]

so far all i've seen is a list of star wing players. If we are talking about people who stuck in an offense enable the offense to run smoother, through passing and other actions I'd consider Caron( this might be a homer pick because I've watched him alot) I think the players who can play point forward like lamar, kirilenko, Diaw etc need to be considered. Also bigs like Gasol and Garnett who have good post passing would be on my list.

I did mention Kirilenko and Diaw, though Odom is a good addition and, as someone else mentioned, Butler isn't a terrible add-on either.

i agree, kobe isnt a very good playmakers.

Watch a Lakers game, then try again.

I see your point with Lebron James, i agree hes a better playmaker..and i can also accept that Tracy McGrady is better.

I just dont agree that Kobe is a better playmaker than Wade, hes better at a lot of things..but not as a playmaker IMO..you could plug in Wade at PG on a team, but you cant do that with Kobe, it just wasnt natural when the tried it.

You can plug Wade it at the 1 because he's 6'5; he doesn't do anything differently at the 1 than he does at the 2, that's part of my commentary.

Yea hes turnover prone, but not all turnovers are passing ones. This is probably Wades worst season as a playmaker and even then his Assist/Turnover ratio this season is better than Kobe's assist/turnover ratio.

Oh, I wasn't even looking at this year and to be fair, bad passes usually represent the largest proportion of his turnovers; they have for three years running. And as far as turnovers, he's not actually turning it over all that much more than usual, if you look at his turnover rate, turnovers per-36, etc. He's not even setting a career-high in TOV% this year.

But anyway, it gets back to his linear game and how it's very limited in his starting points and style on account of his size and skill set (in comparison, of course).

He ran the pick and roll with Haslem perfectly, he ran it with Blount this season. Hes set up so many open shots for guys like Alston, D. Jones, Jwill, Kapono, Posey...alleyoops for Wright, Shaq, Marion.

Yeah, penetrate-and-pitch, pick-and-rolls and some alley-oops; he's an outstanding player in general, which makes discussing this difficult but he doesn't see the defense the way the other guys do, and this is including Kobe.

When he had a slow down defensive team he racked up assists...when he was sorrounded by scrubs this year with no shooters or post players he still racked up assists. i dont see how someone that creates so many open shots for others no matter how many different types of defense is thrown at him doesnt have vision.

I think you've missed the point; Wade has vision, obviously, it's only within the scope of the comparison to Kobe, T-Mac and Lebron that he suffers on this account.

[TMU]

In order:
1. LeBron
2. T-Mac
3. Kobe
4. Roy
5. Garnett

[tkb]

Are we ranking their play making abilities or their overall game?

If the former, I'd rank LeBron nr 1. If the latter, I'd rank Kobe nr 1.

[Jordan23Forever]

I think Wade is a better playmaker than Kobe, but not a better passer. This is because he's more aggressive as a player and is generally a more willing passer. Kobe is a more skilled passer, though, as are guys like Lebron and TMac.