MVP Watch 2008... Part 3.

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Post#801 » by eatyourchildren » Mon Mar 17, 2008 4:12 am

prekazi wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



1- I'm not a Kobe hater. I am a guy who's saying that Kobe is this year's MVP. If you are a hater of someone that's your problem not mine. In my opinion being a hater of a good basketball player is nothing but pathetic.

2- I watched the game and I had no idea if you watched it or not. Kobe didn't guard(except some occasional possessions) T-Mac in the first half. From the very beginning of the second half Kobe started to took T-Mac. I don't care about that guys comments because I watched the game and unlike you I am not talking about a game which I didn't even watch.

3-You better watch the replay of the game before calling anyone "liar". Liar is a strong word and you are not in a position to say that considering you didn't even watch the game.


Just caught a replay. Are you kidding? Kobe and Vlad both took turns guarding TMac.

And in the 2nd half, at least 2 of TMac's buckets were on Odom.
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Post#802 » by NO-KG-AI » Mon Mar 17, 2008 4:58 am

CB4MiamiHeat wrote:Looking at "steals" and equating it to just gambling is just as bad as those who look at steals and blocks and rank defense that way.

You gotta watch the games and youll see nobody plays the passing lanes better than Paul. I watched them against the Mavs and Suns..he forced Nash and Kidd into so many turnovers. He had them hesitating on passes, remember these are two of the greatest passers ever. He also stays in front of his man pretty well.

I dont think hes DPOY, but hes definitely making a big impact defensively.


Yes, its the new trend to look at it as gambling. Ask Jason Kidd or Steve Nash if it is gambling.
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Post#803 » by Doctor MJ » Mon Mar 17, 2008 5:42 am

3/17 (previous in parens)

1. Kobe Bryant (1)
2. Chris Paul (3)
3. LeBron James (2)
4. Steve Nash (4)
5. Paul Pierce (5)
6. Dwight Howard (6)
7. Chauncey Billups (9)
8. Tim Duncan (7 )
9. Tracy McGrady (NR)
10. Dirk Nowitzki (8 )

Falling Off: Baron Davis

Thoughts:

How bout them Rockets, eh?

McGrady's looking like he's going to be one of the most interesting case studies for MVP you'll ever see. People are actually talking about the guy as the top candidate for MVP right now despite being clearly considered unworthy of all-star status just a month ago. Crazy.

Well my take: McGrady has to be in the MVP discussion now, but people need to stop getting carried away. During the game today, the Rockets led by 15 at half-time despite getting nothing from McGrady. TMac deserves credit, but he's not doing this alone.
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Post#804 » by KDRE » Mon Mar 17, 2008 6:00 am

The winning streak is all about the entire Rockets team and if you ask Tmac, he'll tell you that himself.

As it stands, its not just one guy its a race between the top 3-5 players.
Notes: Rookie Rudy Gay twisted his left ankle trying to guard McGrady late in the third quarter and limped to the bench. He returned with 5:51 left, then returned to the bench about a minute later - http://www.nba.com/games/20061231/MEMHOU/recap.html
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Post#805 » by T-Mac for MVP » Mon Mar 17, 2008 6:42 am

McGrady scored enough points, grabbed enough rebounds, and got enough assists for his team to win. He's been doing that all throughout this streak. Difference tonite is that they needed less of it from him than previous nights. But one night in which he was not the best player on the team should not discredit him for all the previous games of the streak as some people are suggesting. If he doesn't play all 48 mins the previous game against Charlotte they don't win; if he doesn't play 48 mins and score 41 points against New Orleans a few games ago they don't win, etc. Just because the Rockets were able to win one game tonight without a big performance from McGrady doesn't mean they could have done it on a regular basis. Even Miami gets a win once in a while, but their one win cannot be used to generalize how they are usually.
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Post#806 » by shobe_81 » Mon Mar 17, 2008 6:46 am

I don't think people can make a case for T-Mac for MVP until the Rockets finish in 1st place of the West.

I understand Rockets are playing amazing (obviously) being led by T-mac but he wasn't even deserving for the All-Star selection. I still think the top 3 are Paul, Kobe, and Lebron (slightly behind is KG and T-Mac), because those 3 guys have played well all season long.

But if McGrady can sustain a good finish and get Rockets to 1st, then he has a possibility of being MVP.
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Post#807 » by RobertGlory » Mon Mar 17, 2008 8:47 am

the rockets ARE in 1st in the west, where kobe and the lakers and paul and the hornets would like to be

plus they've lost yao ming for now 10 games

as for t-mac being a case study, his case is so unique. he lost an all-star center who quite frankly is better than him on a team that has the second longest winning streak ever.

they were in 10th place.

i wonder if this streak is even more impressive than the lakers' streak 36 years ago, due to increased talent in the league, more teams, video scouting, etc.
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Post#808 » by Doctor MJ » Mon Mar 17, 2008 9:15 am

T-Mac for MVP wrote:McGrady scored enough points, grabbed enough rebounds, and got enough assists for his team to win. He's been doing that all throughout this streak. Difference tonite is that they needed less of it from him than previous nights. But one night in which he was not the best player on the team should not discredit him for all the previous games of the streak as some people are suggesting. If he doesn't play all 48 mins the previous game against Charlotte they don't win; if he doesn't play 48 mins and score 41 points against New Orleans a few games ago they don't win, etc. Just because the Rockets were able to win one game tonight without a big performance from McGrady doesn't mean they could have done it on a regular basis. Even Miami gets a win once in a while, but their one win cannot be used to generalize how they are usually.


It's a fair point that one game should not be used to discredit a player. I probably should have given more detail, so here it goes:

The #1 seed in the West is great, but it is by no means a clincher for MVP status. For one, being a game ahead of the Lakers & Hornets, while critical for seeding, does not make the team's performance qualitatively better. Meanwhile Kobe and Paul have played amazing all year. TMac's neither played all year (he's played far less than them) nor played amazing all year. In fact, despite the fact that TMac's team has been the best to this point, the Lakers with Kobe and the Hornets with Paul have played better than the Rockets with McGrady. Then add in that the Rockets without TMac have done better than either of those other clubs without their respective star.

While the East is weaker, by no means is it reasonable to argue the Rockets have performed better to this point than this year's Celtics or the Pistons of a couple of years ago, and people have thought nothing of voting for someone other than a guy from those teams. People should certainly have similar wariness with the Rockets.

Bottom line: Just because TMac is a superstar, and his team is doing better than other superstars, does not mean that he should be ranked ahead of them.
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Post#809 » by Doctor MJ » Mon Mar 17, 2008 9:22 am

RobertGlory wrote:i wonder if this streak is even more impressive than the lakers' streak 36 years ago, due to increased talent in the league, more teams, video scouting, etc.


:o No.

When Houston gets within a couple games or so of the Lakers streak, you might be able to argue that. As is, remember that the reason why the Rockets are currently 2nd on the list is that nobody in history, which includes teams from that Laker team's era, has been able to get anywhere near that 30+ ballpark, meanwhile the Rockets have a whole slew of teams from their era who had streaks in close range to themselves.
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Post#810 » by tkb » Mon Mar 17, 2008 9:23 am

The video scouting argument works both ways too. Other team couldn't scout the Lakers, but the Lakers couldn't scout them either via video so it evens out.
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Post#811 » by NO-KG-AI » Mon Mar 17, 2008 9:25 am

Chris Paul is now .1 behind Nash for the assists lead, gaining fast.
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Post#812 » by tkb » Mon Mar 17, 2008 9:43 am

ASB + 4 weeks

1. Kobe Bryant (1)
2. Chris Paul (3)
3. LeBron James (2)
4. Steve Nash (4)
5. Tim Duncan (5)
6. Tracy McGrady (t-10)
7. Dwight Howard (7)
8. Paul Pierce (6)
9. Kevin Garnett (t-10)
10. Chauncey Billups (9)

Falling off and honorable mention:
Dirk Nowitzki (8)

Don't want to drop off Dirk, but the other guys are doing too well. McGrady keeps pushing towards the top 5.
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Post#813 » by T-Mac for MVP » Mon Mar 17, 2008 1:15 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



It's a fair point that one game should not be used to discredit a player. I probably should have given more detail, so here it goes:

The #1 seed in the West is great, but it is by no means a clincher for MVP status. For one, being a game ahead of the Lakers & Hornets, while critical for seeding, does not make the team's performance qualitatively better. Meanwhile Kobe and Paul have played amazing all year. TMac's neither played all year (he's played far less than them) nor played amazing all year. In fact, despite the fact that TMac's team has been the best to this point, the Lakers with Kobe and the Hornets with Paul have played better than the Rockets with McGrady. Then add in that the Rockets [b]without TMac have done better than either of those other clubs without their respective star[/b].

While the East is weaker, by no means is it reasonable to argue the Rockets have performed better to this point than this year's Celtics or the Pistons of a couple of years ago, and people have thought nothing of voting for someone other than a guy from those teams. People should certainly have similar wariness with the Rockets.

Bottom line: Just because TMac is a superstar, and his team is doing better than other superstars, does not mean that he should be ranked ahead of them.


You would have to look at how the Rockets would be without both McGrady AND Yao because at this moment that's how the Rockets would be without McGrady. Without McGrady and Yao you would have a lineup of Deke, Scola, Battier, Head, Alston. That team would struggle to score 80 points a night because none of them can create their own shot with the exception of Alston every now and then.
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Post#814 » by INKtastic » Mon Mar 17, 2008 1:37 pm

you're trying to give McGrady too much credit for what has clearly been a team effort. Some night's it been McGrady, some nights it's been Yao, some night's it's been Alston, etc. You wouldn't even be bringing up McGrady as MVP if Yao doesn't help get 8 wins while McGrady is out hurt.

It's hard to even make a case for McGrady as first team all NBA (Paul and Kobe) and you want him to be MVP? Is he even clearly 2nd team all NBA? Has he been clearly better than all of these guys - Nash, Ginobili, Iverson, Billups, Davis, Williams?

A bit too much is made over team record for MVP in a team sport, when MVP is an individual award, not a team award. Exactly how do you argue for McGrady as MVP without giving it to KG or Billups when the arguement for McGrady is strictly on team record. Boston and Detroit not only have better records than Houston, they have better records against the West than Houston.

You can make a pretty strong case for Rick Adelman as coach of the year right now, though when a couple weeks ago, Byron Scott seemed a lock.
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Post#815 » by Doctor MJ » Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:23 pm

T-Mac for MVP wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



You would have to look at how the Rockets would be without both McGrady AND Yao because at this moment that's how the Rockets would be without McGrady. Without McGrady and Yao you would have a lineup of Deke, Scola, Battier, Head, Alston. That team would struggle to score 80 points a night because none of them can create their own shot with the exception of Alston every now and then.


I fail to see how the analysis I just provided has a flaw related to your response.
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Post#816 » by eatyourchildren » Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:39 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



I fail to see how the analysis I just provided has a flaw related to your response.


That's because he, like others before him, think that on court/off court +/- answers whatever question he thinks it answers. It tells you nothing about the strength of those players playing as a unit, other than that they play worse minus a superstar (duh).



Just a personal preference--but I like the MVP to be the best scorer and defender for his team (or at least really close to it). TMac is the best scorer on the Rockets, but they're winning their games on defense. Their best defender is Shane Battier.
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Post#817 » by TheKingOfVa360 » Mon Mar 17, 2008 3:13 pm

March 17

1. Kobe Bryant
2. Chris Paul
3. Tracy McGrady
4. Lebron James
5. KG
6. Dwight Howard
7. Amare
8. Boozer
9. Manu
10. Chauncey Billups (9)
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Post#818 » by prekazi » Mon Mar 17, 2008 4:04 pm

eatyourchildren wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



Just caught a replay. Are you kidding? Kobe and Vlad both took turns guarding TMac.

And in the 2nd half, at least 2 of TMac's buckets were on Odom.


I rewatched the first half now. In the first period %80 of the time Vlad defended T-Mac. Odom and Kobe took him occasionally also. In the second half T-Mac checked in last 4:54. In first 3 possessions Kobe took him. First one he dished an asist. Second one he managed to past Kobe and missed a wide open 15ft jumper. Third one he played a pick and roll with Scola, Scola fouled by Kobe. Then Vlad took him. On 4th possession T-Mac made a great pass inside to Scola and Scola fouled.

Anyway If you also watched the game today you'll see that. My point was not Kobe is a bad defender. You have to be blind and stupid to say it. BUT, T-Mac was off whole night, he couldn't even beat Vlad on any possession it wasn't about Kobe's defense.

I took it very personally because you called me a liar. Please don't comment so strong on games which you didn't watch.

My MVP List

1-Kobe, Chris Paul
2-LeBron
3-KG

T-Mac is nowhere near MVP level. Just because his team is succesful it doesn't mean you'll hand the prize to him automatically. T-Mac is NOT the key in Houston's success.
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Post#819 » by SA37 » Mon Mar 17, 2008 5:26 pm

I just can't see how Chris Paul can't be the MVP.

His last 4 games, vs Houston, LAL, SA, and Detroit:

41.3 mpg 26ppg 14.75apg 3rpg 2.5spg 55.3 fg%(42-76) 42.9 3pt% (6-14) 70 ft%(14-20)

It isn't that there aren't other candidates who should get consideration, but I think he has just been head and shoulders above anyone, in terms of stepping his game up this year.

2006-2007 (64 games played, 27dbl-dbls, 1 trpl-dble)

36.8mpg 17.3ppg 8.9apg 4.4rpg 1.8spg 43.7 fg% 35.0 3pt% 81.8 ft%

2007-2008 (63 games played 41dbl-dbls, 0 trpl-dbls)

37.6mpg 21.3ppg 11.3apg 3.9rpg 2.7spg 49.0 fg% 36.4 3pt% 86.9 ft%

Other notables:

- He is 4th in efficiency this year. (28th last year)

- He is averaging 4.43asst per turnover. (3.53-to-1 last year)

- 9 games with 20+ points and 15+ assists. (He had 2 such games last year.)

(Just to compare: Deron Williams has 2 this year, Baron Davis has 3, Kidd has 0, Parker has 0, and Nash has 2.

Also, during his MVP years, Nash had 4 games with 20+ points and 15+ assists in '04-05' and 5 in '05-06')

- He has either made or assisted on 48.3% of the Hornets' baskets this season, which is the best rate since John Stockton in 1990-91 (made or assisted 51.6 percent of Utah's field goals).

- Chris Paul has 44 double-figure assist games this season. (He had 30 last year.)

* Nash had 59 double-figure assist games '04-'05 (75 games) and 45 in 05'-06' (79 games).
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Post#820 » by CB4MiamiHeat » Mon Mar 17, 2008 5:36 pm

i dont see how people bring Tmac's team being in 1st as being a team effort. And then bring up their record without Tmac.

And then in the same sense completely ignore that the Lakers are there cause of team effort also, without Gasol the team would probably be in the lottery right now trying to catch up Golden State.

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