Thad at the 4...and Monta Ellis at the 2?

The Sixer Fixer · Post #41 » by **The Sixer Fixer** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 4:01 am

tk76 wrote:I have to agree with Sendem here. Miller needs to be your 4th or 5th best player if you are expecting to be a winner. He's not a bad NBA player, but his [+] offense would be more of an asset if he was a better defender.

I'd take Battier over Miller, and sacrifice offensive firepower for a decent jumper and top defense.

Looking at that PER stat that everyne here loves so much. Miller is historically a better PER player that the guy he is directly defending each night. Sure, he may get outscored since he's not a guy who takes a ton of shots (like many of the other SG/SF's in the league). It all somes down to efficiency IMO. If Miller gives up 2-3 pts more than he scores, but Miller shoots 50% and his opponent shoots 42-45%, I'd take Miller most nights. If Miller gets a few more assists/rebounds than who he's guarding, it at least evens out.

It's really hard to analyze Miller's defensive abilitly by looking at box scores over the last few years too. He plays on an absolutely horrible team that has no concept of how to play the game. They will get outscored at almost all 5 spots on the court in most games. I have seen him play enough to know that he's way better on D than people here think.

Post #42 » by **tk76** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 4:07 am

Fixer, you make a good point about his efficiency. His eFG% is near 60% because he is such a good 3 pt shooter. I guess it would be interesting to see how he fit on a good team. He certainly would fit in as a good role player, but I'd like to here what others who have seen more of him say about his defense.

SendEm · Post #43 » by **SendEm** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 4:13 am

The Sixer Fixer wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

Wade - wow he scored 41 against a starting lineup of Chuky Atkins, Dahntay Jones, Alexander Johnson, Miller and Gasol (who played only 16 min). There is no way in hell that Miller defended Wade in that game. Based on size matchups, I guarantee it was Jones guarding Wade.

As for Carter, again I'd put money on the fact that it was Jones on him. Plus Miller only player 26 min to Carter's 40 min so I seriously doubt many, if any, of those pts we against Miller.

Jason Richardson 38

edit: This was the Bobby Jones game...

The Sixer Fixer · Post #44 » by **The Sixer Fixer** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 4:20 am

SendEm wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

Jason Richardson 38

edit: This was the Bobby Jones game...

Keep wasting your time. Awesome debate

SendEm · Post #45 » by **SendEm** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 4:38 am

Wow when Miller is playing defense the player that he is guarding while at the SG position has a eFG of .524% and .527% when he's at SF. In contrast here are some other players defensive eFG:

Danny Granger SG .417% SF .500%
Richard Jefferson SG .292% SF .492%
Deshawn Stevenson SG .493% SF .368%

carltong23 · Post #46 » by **carltong23** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 10:14 pm

This thread is kinda rediculous. Louis Williams isnt anywhere near Monta's pure talent level. Monta is more athletic, bigger & stronger, is more consistent, and more explosive. Monta is a starting caliber player, although personally Im not a fan of starting combo gaurds who are mediocre defenders. Louis is more of a bench combo gaurd. He may start for a team one day if he plays with an Amare or Dwight Howard type post player, but I doubt he could lead a team on a consistent basis if he has to be a playmaker. With that said, I wouldnt want either of them to be my starting 2 gaurd.

I cant believe someone even suggested that we trade Andre Iguodala for Mike Miller. Even if you throw in Crittenton, thats not a very appealing trade. Does anyone really think that a starting backcourt of A.Miller, Ellis, and M.Miller is championship caliber? Im not even sure they're playoff caliber.

All I can say is, Im glad we're just fans and not RealGMs. :rofl:

noone · Post #47 » by **noone** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 11:19 pm

SendEm wrote:Wow when Miller is playing defense the player that he is guarding while at the SG position has a eFG of .524% and .527% when he's at SF. In contrast here are some other players defensive eFG:

Danny Granger SG .417% SF .500%
Richard Jefferson SG .292% SF .492%
Deshawn Stevenson SG .493% SF .368%

82games.com:

Richard Jefferson plays SG 5% of the total time there at which he allows an eFG% of .311 not .292. I'm not surprised you decided to look over that. At SF he allows .533%, where he plays 61% of the time (allows PER of 16.8 ).

Danny Granger allows .512% at SF (PER of 17.4)

Stevenson at SG allows .484 and a PER of 14.2

Miller allows an eFG% of .471 at SG and .535 at SF. He allows a PER of 14.7 at SG and 17.1 at SF. He plays slightly more at SF than he does SG.

Where exactly did you get your numbers from? And by the stats on 82games. com, not only is Miller better at SG (where we'd need him) than he is at SF, but his numbers at SG match up well against all the other guys you listed at their main positions.

AnSweR07 · Post #48 » by **AnSweR07** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 3:31 am

carltong23 wrote:This thread is kinda rediculous. Louis Williams isnt anywhere near Monta's pure talent level. Monta is more athletic, bigger & stronger, is more consistent, and more explosive. Monta is a starting caliber player, although personally Im not a fan of starting combo gaurds who are mediocre defenders. Louis is more of a bench combo gaurd. He may start for a team one day if he plays with an Amare or Dwight Howard type post player, but I doubt he could lead a team on a consistent basis if he has to be a playmaker. With that said, I wouldnt want either of them to be my starting 2 gaurd.

I cant believe someone even suggested that we trade Andre Iguodala for Mike Miller. Even if you throw in Crittenton, thats not a very appealing trade. Does anyone really think that a starting backcourt of A.Miller, Ellis, and M.Miller is championship caliber? Im not even sure they're playoff caliber.

All I can say is, Im glad we're just fans and not RealGMs.

Monta is a great athlete and a little bigger than Lou, but he's not the same class athlete as Lou. Pure talent wise they're bout the same IMHO; Monta is more skilled while Lou has better physical gifts. Monta's production dervies from the consistent minutes he's getting which helps his confidence to perform at the level he has without the pressure of making a mistake and being sent to the bench. Mo Cheeks as much as helped Lou...he's been detrimental to his development by bringing him along too slow instead of just throwing him to the wolves and let him make mistakes.

Dedicated_76ers_fan · Post #49 » by **Dedicated_76ers_fan** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 3:46 am

Or hasn't let him play the combo guard spot. The same thing with Thaddeus Young. Get the ball to this kid downlow, get us some buckets.

carltong23 · Post #50 » by **carltong23** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 4:11 am

AnSweR07 wrote:Monta is a great athlete and a little bigger than Lou, but he's not the same class athlete as Lou. Pure talent wise they're bout the same IMHO; Monta is more skilled while Lou has better physical gifts. Monta's production dervies from the consistent minutes he's getting which helps his confidence to perform at the level he has without the pressure of making a mistake and being sent to the bench. Mo Cheeks as much as helped Lou...he's been detrimental to his development by bringing him along too slow instead of just throwing him to the wolves and let him make mistakes.

You cant have it both ways. Either Cheeks has helped Williams development, or hes been detrimental to it. How many more minutes do you want Lou to have? This is Lou's 3rd year in the league. His first year, I think we can all agree, he was way too young to get minutes over Iverson, Ollie, and the other gaurds ahead of him. In his second year he started sharing minutes with Miller after the Iverson trade. This year, hes getting consistent minutes and is contributing well. I dont see how it could have been any different. If anything, Williams' development should be better because Mo has brought him along slowly and is teaching how to be a better point gaurd rather than giving him 37 minutes a night in his third year like Monta. Thats why Lou's 3pt% is so much better and his assists are almost the same as Monta's despite getting 15 less minutes a night. Really its the other way around: Monta is the better athlete while Lou is slightly more skilled.

SendEm · Post #51 » by **SendEm** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 4:20 am

Monta is a superior player than Lou. It was obvious that Lou Willaims could NEVER be a starting SG on a winning team in this league so he had to develop as a PG. If Lou Williams could average 18 ppg and shoot over .500% from the field he would have been left at SG AND BE A STARTER!!!!!!!!!! Lou Williams sits the bench for a losing team. If he was as good as Monta Ellis he would be starting over Willie Green. You put your best players on the court. If Monta were traded here he would start over Willie Green. BTW my stats came from 82games, find them.

bebopdeluxe · Post #52 » by **bebopdeluxe** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 4:27 am

Ellis is a STUD.

He could be my starting SG any freaking day....whether Eddie can get him (or if he even wants him) is another matter entirely. If Thad and Evans - depending on matchups = could hold down the PF position, and we added a stud like Ellis at the SG (with perhaps one other decently skilled thumper at the 4/5 to throw into the rotation)...man...I could go to war with that.

UptownPhilly · Post #53 » by **UptownPhilly** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:01 am

SendEm wrote:Monta is a superior player than Lou. It was obvious that Lou Willaims could NEVER be a starting SG on a winning team in this league so he had to develop as a PG. If Lou Williams could average 18 ppg and shoot over .500% from the field he would have been left at SG AND BE A STARTER!!!!!!!!!! Lou Williams sits the bench for a losing team. If he was as good as Monta Ellis he would be starting over Willie Green. You put your best players on the court. If Monta were traded here he would start over Willie Green. BTW my stats came from 82games, find them.

I don't know what team you're talking about? :dontknow:

AnSweR07 · Post #54 » by **AnSweR07** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:55 am

carltong23 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

You cant have it both ways. Either Cheeks has helped Williams development, or hes been detrimental to it. How many more minutes do you want Lou to have? This is Lou's 3rd year in the league. His first year, I think we can all agree, he was way too young to get minutes over Iverson, Ollie, and the other gaurds ahead of him. In his second year he started sharing minutes with Miller after the Iverson trade. This year, hes getting consistent minutes and is contributing well. I dont see how it could have been any different. If anything, Williams' development should be better because Mo has brought him along slowly and is teaching how to be a better point gaurd rather than giving him 37 minutes a night in his third year like Monta. Thats why Lou's 3pt% is so much better and his assists are almost the same as Monta's despite getting 15 less minutes a night. Really its the other way around: Monta is the better athlete while Lou is slightly more skilled.

I mean there's no question Mo Cheeks has helped his game...Lou came into the league with virtually nonexistent pg skills, but Mo's taken him under his wing by tutoring and mentoring him into becoming a serviceable pg in this league. He's gotten better at controlling the tempo, running offensive sets crisper, and his defense has even improved. However, despite the fact that Mo has helped him by adding more to his game, I believe he's focused too much on him to become a pg to the point where if Lou takes too many shots instead of passing the ball..he'll take him out of the game. It's hurting his game in essence b/c where his mindset would be normally to score he has to make the pass now b/c of his expectations from his coach. It's kind of like subtraction by addition..he's added more to his game, but now he's not playing to his strengths and therefore he hasn't improved more as he should.

AnSweR07 · Post #55 » by **AnSweR07** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:59 am

SendEm wrote:Monta is a superior player than Lou. It was obvious that Lou Willaims could NEVER be a starting SG on a winning team in this league so he had to develop as a PG. If Lou Williams could average 18 ppg and shoot over .500% from the field he would have been left at SG AND BE A STARTER!!!!!!!!!! Lou Williams sits the bench for a losing team. If he was as good as Monta Ellis he would be starting over Willie Green. You put your best players on the court. If Monta were traded here he would start over Willie Green. BTW my stats came from 82games, find them.

Monta is hella good player, but I think it's foolish to write off Lou as a starting SG in this league. He has too much talent not to become a starting player one day. Do you honestly believe Willie Green is better player than Lou? I highly doubt it. Lou's still playing behind the bench mainly b/c of Miller's production and more than anything his defense isn't as up to par yet.

SendEm · Post #56 » by **SendEm** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 7:43 am

AnSweR07 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

Monta is hella good player, but I think it's foolish to write off Lou as a starting SG in this league. He has too much talent not to become a starting player one day. Do you honestly believe Willie Green is better player than Lou? I highly doubt it. Lou's still playing behind the bench mainly b/c of Miller's production and more than anything his defense isn't as up to par yet.

Lou Williams is not a starting SG in this league. His shooting percentage is too low, he's too short, and he just simply doesn't have enough offensive ability. He can't defend that position. The NBA has players like Paul Pierce, Tracy McGrady, and Kobe Bryant rotating and starting at that position. Just because Iverson was able to play that position doesn't give Lou Williams a green light to do so. Charlotte/New Orleans Hornets had Wesley playing alongside Baron Davis at that position and they got used every night. Willie Green is a more consistent player than Lou Williams right now. The Sixers staff know Lou's limitations.

The Sixers are actually helping Lou Williams out by teaching him to be a PG and having him COMPLETELY rework his jump shot over the summer with Mark Price. He has learned to use his left hand for drives, passing, and lay ups. They have taught him how to seek contact and finish. Lou Williams really wasn't much of a player coming out of High School. He just was athletic and smart.

Lou Williams might one day be a better player than Monta Ellis if the PG light clicks on in his head. But Lou Williams will NEVER be a better SG than Monta Ellis and NEVER would have even if Lou Williams were on another team that allowed him to be a SG since day one. Monta is 6'3 and plays like he is 6'6. Lou Williams is 6'1" and plays like he is 6'1"...

SendEm · Post #57 » by **SendEm** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 7:55 am

In some of you Sixers fans minds Louis Williams will always be a "could have been as could as Monta Ellis if the Sixers let him play SG." This comparison holds major water with you huddled few because they both were drafted in the 2nd round of the same year. Monta could come into next season, average 25ppg, shoot over .550% from the field, and you all will still say "Lou Williams could have been as good if Cheeks just let him play SG." LOL!!! You all remind me of the people who kept saying that Donnie Carr was better than/just as good as Kobe Bryant. Yeah remember those people? How wrong they were...LOL!

Dedicated_76ers_fan · Post #58 » by **Dedicated_76ers_fan** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 8:15 am

No, because Monta Ellis cannot possibly play like something he's NOT (6'6). I could've very easily coached Lou Will into being a combo guard because that's his best strength. He can run the point and be THE focal point of an offense. He has so much potential that should not be limited by his size.

SendEm · Post #59 » by **SendEm** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 8:41 am

Ummmm, Lou Williams is a BACKUP Point Guard. He has not displayed that he can be a starting PG for a winning team. Certainly he could start at PG for a team like Atlanta, Minn., or any of the other garbage teams but no GM in his right mind would look to him as the starting PG of a winning franchise. Monta Ellis will get paid ATLEAST $8 million per season this summer. Lou Williams will be LUCKY if he gets the full MLE.

I just don't understand, we have seen Lou Williams fail game after game after game after game at being a true PG. Can't anyone see that his future isn't THAT bright at PG? I believe that he will be good one day at PG but certainly not have anywhere near the effect that Monta is having at SG.

It;s the Donnie Carr/Kobe Bryant comparison all over again. The comparison is only going to look worst as the years pass by and Monta produces more.

I like Lou Williams. I like Monta. I'm a Sixers enthusiast, but the Warriors have the far better basketball player...

Post #60 » by **dbodner** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 2:52 pm

I just don't understand, we have seen Lou Williams fail game after game after game after game at being a true PG

I'm not a huge Lou Will fan, and don't think he's as good as Monta, and I definitely don't have a strong belief he can play the point, but when has he been asked to really be a true point guard to fail "game after game after game after game" ?

And as much as I want to, because of the extremely obnoxious "google blah blah blah" episode, I won't point out the use of the word "worst", I won't.