Portland @ MN (official Al>>>LMA thread)

JeffJordan · Post #201 » by **JeffJordan** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 3:00 am

shrink wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

... and if Jeff Jordan says it, its reality, just like Casey. Just ask them. I think casey parted the sea too, but Jeff Jordan is the omniscient mindreader and fortune teller.

Difference is that I am not a Blazers fan. If anything I feel bitterness towards them, since my Bulls traded LaMarcus for Tyrus Thomas. Bottom line is that every single GM in the league will take Oden over Jefferson-- if you think otherwise, then you are really fooling yourself.

shrink · Post #202 » by **shrink** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 4:11 am

JeffJordan wrote: Difference is that I am not a Blazers fan. If anything I feel bitterness towards them, since my Bulls traded LaMarcus for Tyrus Thomas. Bottom line is that every single GM in the league will take Oden over Jefferson-- if you think otherwise, then you are really fooling yourself.

Wow -- you can not only read the minds of the 30 GMs, but my mind as well? You truly must be omniscient -- certainly we should just take your word for it, rather than expect you to produce any evidence of your statement.

JeffJordan · Post #203 » by **JeffJordan** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 6:13 am

shrink wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

Wow -- you can not only read the minds of the 30 GMs, but my mind as well? You truly must be omniscient -- certainly we should just take your word for it, rather than expect you to produce any evidence of your statement.

So there is a GM out there that would take Al Jefferson over Greg Oden? Yeah, keep telling yourself that.

Post #204 » by **Worm Guts** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 12:03 pm

theGreatRC wrote:Seriously, nobody is a proven player based on potential. I doubt Mchale would straight up trade Al for Oden right now, and the word potential has to be one of the most overrated excuses you can give a player.

Potential is just what people expect you to be, it's not what you are 100% going to become.

Of course no one is a proven player based on potential but that doesn't GM's wouldn't take a player with higher potential over a player who has been accomplished in the league. Do you think Cleveland would have traded Lebron James for anyone coming out of the draft? Of course not. And the same thing applies to a lesser extent with Oden.

shrink · Post #205 » by **shrink** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 1:59 pm

Obviously, the injury lowers Oden's value and increases his risk. Reasonable people can disagree as to whether that's enough to slide behind Al Jefferson. Jefferson is 23, and puts up a reliable 21 and 12, and that should not be under-estimated.

LordBaldric · Post #206 » by **LordBaldric** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 5:30 pm

Jeff Jordan annoys the hell out of the Bulls' board too. You have my moral support!

JeffJordan · Post #207 » by **JeffJordan** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 10:11 pm

LordBaldric wrote:Jeff Jordan annoys the hell out of the Bulls' board too. You have my moral support!

Only annoy people like you that are in denial about Tyrus Thomas.

Post #208 » by **revprodeji** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 5:44 pm

Oden (if healed) will be a defensive presence, someone who can rebound and block shots. But there is no indication that he will be anything close to the offensive player Al is. Al has one of the most smooth low post games we have seen in the last decade. His footwork, ability to pivot from either foot. Counter and secondary counter moves and ability to finish with either hand is something that Oden has not displayed. Oden can dunk. Cool. and he is athletic, but there is no proof that he can command a double team at the NBA level.

Post #209 » by **Worm Guts** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 6:13 pm

revprodeji wrote:Oden (if healed) will be a defensive presence, someone who can rebound and block shots. But there is no indication that he will be anything close to the offensive player Al is. Al has one of the most smooth low post games we have seen in the last decade. His footwork, ability to pivot from either foot. Counter and secondary counter moves and ability to finish with either hand is something that Oden has not displayed. Oden can dunk. Cool. and he is athletic, but there is no proof that he can command a double team at the NBA level.

Players as big and athletic as Oden usually don't have much problem putting points on the board. And as pretty as Jefferson's offensive game is, it's not efficient at an elite level.

Post #210 » by **revprodeji** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 7:00 pm

I think the efficiency issue is based more on the team around him, not him. I still take Al over Odom for that reason.

horaceworthy · Post #211 » by **horaceworthy** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 8:53 pm

I'll take Al over Odom 10 times out of 10, too. Oden's probably another story, though.

deeney0 · Post #212 » by **deeney0** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 9:27 pm

Worm Guts wrote:-= original quote snipped =-
And as pretty as Jefferson's offensive game is, it's not efficient at an elite level.

Yet.

Post #213 » by **C.lupus** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 6:41 pm

Worm Guts wrote: And as pretty as Jefferson's offensive game is, it's not efficient at an elite level.

I don't know, he seems pretty close to me (or am I missing something?):

PLAYER, EFF
1 LeBron James , 31.41
2 Chris Paul , 27.97
3 Amare Stoudemire , 27.72
4 Dwight Howard , 27.46
5 Kobe Bryant , 26.13
6 Dirk Nowitzki , 25.91
7 Ming Yao , 25.53
8 Carlos Boozer , 25.28
9 Tim Duncan , 25.17
10 Kevin Garnett , 24.83
11 Al Jefferson , 24.43
12 Chris Bosh , 24.26
13 Marcus Camby , 24.15
14 Allen Iverson , 23.52
15 Chris Kaman , 23.48
16 Caron Butler , 23.25
17 Steve Nash , 23.04
18 Pau Gasol , 23.0
19 Baron Davis , 22.97
20 Shawn Marion , 22.95

Post #214 » by **revprodeji** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 7:06 pm

I agree with you. I think he is near elite on offense. His defense does need work. But that kind of low post offensive package is something a team can build around.

Post #215 » by **Worm Guts** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 7:13 pm

[quote="C.lupus"][/quote]

I wasn't talking about efficiency the stat. I was referring to his scoring ability. He shoots around 50% and doesn't get to the free throw line much and that doesn't compare with elite inside scorers like Howard, Stoudemire or even Chris Bosh.

Post #216 » by **Worm Guts** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 7:18 pm

And I honestly think that Oden will be a lot better offensively than Al in 2-3 years, if he's healthy. Something like 20-25 ppg on 55-60 percent shooting.

Post #217 » by **C.lupus** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 8:53 pm

I still think Al is close offensively. I agree that he's not in the same league defensively (although he's not as bad as some make him out to be). Here are the career stats for Duncan, Olajuwon, and Jefferson showing FG%, FTA, and FT%. Al is right there in shooting % but he does need to learn to get to the line more often. Respect from the refs plays into that also.

Tim Duncan
Season Age FG% FTA FT%
1997-98 21 .549 482 .662
1998-99 22 .495 358 .690
1999-00 23 .490 603 .761
2000-01 24 .499 662 .618
2001-02 25 .508 701 .799
2002-03 26 .513 634 .710
2003-04 27 .501 588 .599
2004-05 28 .496 455 .670
2005-06 29 .484 533 .629
2006-07 30 .546 568 .637
2007-08 31 .500 380 .732
Career .508 5964 .683
542FTA/season for his career

Hakeem Olajuwon
Season Age FG% FTA FT%
1984-85 22 .538 551 .613
1985-86 23 .526 538 .645
1986-87 24 .508 570 .702
1987-88 25 .514 548 .695
1988-89 26 .508 652 .696
1989-90 27 .501 536 .713
1990-91 28 .508 277 .769
1991-92 29 .502 428 .766
1992-93 30 .529 570 .779
1993-94 31 .528 542 .716
1994-95 32 .517 537 .756
1995-96 33 .514 548 .724
1996-97 34 .510 446 .787
1997-98 35 .483 212 .755
1998-99 36 .514 272 .717
1999-00 37 .458 112 .616
2000-01 38 .498 198 .621
2001-02 39 .464 84 .560
Career .512 7621 .712
423FTA/season for his career (562FTA/yr not including his last five years when stats declined due to age)

Al Jefferson
Season Age FG% FTA FT%
2004-05 20 .528 135 .630
2005-06 21 .499 134 .642
2006-07 22 .514 295 .681
2007-08 23 .502 330 .718
Career .509 894 .681
224 FTA/season for his career

I agree with Worm Guts about Oden, though, IF he is 100% healthy.

farzi · Post #218 » by **farzi** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 10:53 am

Worm Guts wrote:And I honestly think that Oden will be a lot better offensively than Al in 2-3 years, if he's healthy. Something like 20-25 ppg on 55-60 percent shooting.

I don't think he'll ever average ~25ppg with the current makeup Portland has, or even a similar one.

Roy 20-23ppg
Aldridge 20-25ppg
Webster 10-18ppg
Outlaw 10-18ppg
Fernandez has the potential to be a mid 20ppg scorer.

Yes, Oden COULD put up that kind of ppg, but with as many other weapons as portland has / will have, its unreasonable to think he'll average that. 16-20 maybe.

Post #219 » by **Worm Guts** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 10:03 pm

farzi wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

I don't think he'll ever average ~25ppg with the current makeup Portland has, or even a similar one.

Roy 20-23ppg
Aldridge 20-25ppg
Webster 10-18ppg
Outlaw 10-18ppg
Fernandez has the potential to be a mid 20ppg scorer.

Yes, Oden COULD put up that kind of ppg, but with as many other weapons as portland has / will have, its unreasonable to think he'll average that. 16-20 maybe.

If you have a guy who scores at a 60% clip, that's where you. He'd cut into other players scoring not vice versa.