Why Do So Many Fans Blame Kohl for Larry Harris' Failure?

[old skool]

I have not been critical of Larry Harris to this point. His moves have had some logic behind them. I did not agree with every move, but as fan I have given him the benefit of the doubt.

But the bottom line is that his work has been a failure. And increasingly, that failure is laid at the doorstep of Herb Kohl.

That does not make sense to me.

Kohl is the owner. He has the right to inject himself into major decisions. This is not new in sports, nor is it proven to be a hindrance, as demonstrated by championships won by Geo. Steinbrenner and Jerry Jones.

The implication is that Kohl and his cadre of attorneys have hamstrung Harris so badly that LH has been ineffective.

Kohl is not a complete fool. If Harris had a well thought out rationale for each move, all that he had to do was communicate that to Kohl. Convince him of the reasons that Harris had for each move. Show him how those moves made sense. Be persuasive. Be convincing. That is how you win the confidence of an owner. That is how you get more respect. More freedom. It is in Kohl's best interest to have a winner. Show him how your ideas produce a winner. That is part of the job of a GM.

It is absurd for a GM to require complete and utter authority on all decisions to be effective. If Harris couldn't sell his ideas to Kohl, maybe Harris' ideas were not that hot. Maybe Harris' ideas were presented in a way that failed to instill confidence.

Don't blame me if I don't approve of your suggestion - all that you have to do is convince me! If you don't convince me, that's not my fault! Take some responsibility for your failure to convince me! Losers blame others. And let others take the blame for failure.

I don't know Harris or the Bucks front office, but it sounds to me that Harris is not taking responsibility for the decisions coming out of his office. Many here on Realgm "attest" to Kohl's meddling. How do they know that - apparently because of comments coming from the Bucks front office. The ONLY person who truly knows if Kohl is preventing Bucks success is Larry Harris. If the word is out that Kohl is to blame, then Larry Harris must be hearing that. He must be letting others repeat it. Letting others promulgate the story that Kohl is really to blame.

If Harris really believes that Kohl is to blame, he should be ashamed. All he has to do to succeed is to convince his boss of the proper course of action - which is just part of doing his job.

If Harris does not believe that Kohl is to blame, he should be ashamed. He should make sure that his front office and other insiders know that Kohl is not to blame - again, part of doing his job.

The Bucks are a mess. Leadership starts at the top, but does not end there. Every employee has a responsibility to sell their ideas to those above them. Getting approval for something is hollow if the boss has not been sold on the idea. In the long run, it is not enough to be right. One has to be able to show others why they are right. In that, Harris appears to have failed. That failure seems to be extending throughout the organization. That failure might explain how the Bucks continue to lose regardless of the coach or the talent level.

It is not Kohl's job to be a yes man. To approve any move regardless of the rationale behind it. It is Kohl's job to question and probe. If his question and probing is extreme, the GM has to be extreme in his persuasion.

I hope that the Bucks next GM can make a series of smart moves that lead to Bucks success. I hope that he can persuade Herb Kohl of the wisdom of making those moves. Let's not deny that this was Larry Harris' job and that he failed to do it.

oLd sKool

[jerrod]

you're kidding right?

[ReddManBogieMan]

I totally agree. I think Herb always thought of Larry as Del's little boy.
If they had a strong GM that said we suck unless we do deal X, Herb would for sure sign off on it. I liked Harris but I think he was to big of a Herb Kohl brown noser.

[raferfenix]

Your post ignores how Kohl meddled with our coaches as well, to the extent that he told them what offense they could run and what minutes to give players.

This environmetn leads to such dysfunction that it resulted in a guy like JAKE VOSHKUL demanding a trade. No franchise can be successful with an owner constnatly undercutting the coach and GM. Kohl does not need to be a yes man, but we can't have a team where the players even think that if they come to the owner with a grieveance about a superior, he'll take their side no matter the effect in the lockerroom.

[LISTEN2JAZZ]

Kohl is the owner. He has the right to inject himself into major decisions.

Ok, he's got the right... how has that worked out over the past 20 years? Are fans supposed to support decades of losing by buying tickets and merchandise just because it's his right to run things however he pleases?

If I buy my own jazz club, it's my right to come on stage and mimic the sound of a fart with my trumpet every night. How many nights in a row will you pay to come watch it?

[WEFFPIM]

It doesn't make sense to you because you have no idea what you're talking about.

[emunney]

Kohl nixed a Boozer/Brewer for Williams/Magloire deal. Also, what? Simmons/pick for Marion?

[ReddManBogieMan]

Kohl nixed a Boozer/Brewer for Williams/Magloire deal. Also, what? Simmons/pick for Marion?

This was his point.

It is absurd for a GM to require complete and utter authority on all decisions to be effective. If Harris couldn't sell his ideas to Kohl, maybe Harris' ideas were not that hot. Maybe Harris' ideas were presented in a way that failed to instill confidence.

[jerrod]

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it's absurd that kohl thinks his ideas are "so hot"

[ReddManBogieMan]

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it's absurd that kohl thinks his ideas are "so hot"

??? I don't know what you mean by that.

[jerrod]

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??? I don't know what you mean by that.

ok, you see that post you quoted about how kohl didn't think lh's ideas were that hot? i'm saying that it's stupid that after 20 years kohl seems to think he knows which moves are good

[ReddManBogieMan]

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ok, you see that post you quoted about how kohl didn't think lh's ideas were that hot? i'm saying that it's stupid that after 20 years kohl seems to think he knows which moves are good

Owners usually like to have final decisions, especially after Grunsfield blew up our roster. If LH brought a weak sales pitch to Herb and couldn't answer Kohl why this improves, than maybe Harris is to be blamed partially.

[jerrod]

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Owners usually like to have final decisions, especially after Grunsfield blew up our roster. If LH brought a weak sales pitch to Herb and couldn't answer Kohl why this improves, than maybe Harris is to be blamed partially.

you're assuming sooooo much


you seem to be forgetting that a gm is supposed to be knowledgable about basketball, not high pressure sales techniques. he's not working at best buy

[ReddManBogieMan]

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you're assuming sooooo much


you seem to be forgetting that a gm is supposed to be knowledgable about basketball, not high pressure sales techniques. he's not working at best buy

You are right. In a perfect scenario that would be the case, but Herb wants to win now and can't afford another screw up by the GM, that's why he gets involved. Herb Kohl isn't going to be around forever so I think he wants to be the bucks to be a contender in the very near future. I'm not saying that this is the ideal way of running things, but it is understandable at least.

[Epicurus]

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ok, you see that post you quoted about how kohl didn't think lh's ideas were that hot? i'm saying that it's stupid that after 20 years kohl seems to think he knows which moves are good

jerrod, you are really off the mark here. Superordinates as a rule require justifications from subordinates regarding major decisions, even if the subordinate has more expertise in the area of the decision. The subordinate is responsible to use that expertise to build the most persuasive case for his preferred alternative. What is being suggested is that Harris did not adequately build that case.

[ReddManBogieMan]

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jerrod, you are really off the mark here. Superordinates as a rule require justifications from subordinates regarding major decisions, even if the subordinate has more expertise in the area of the decision. The subordinate is responsible to use that expertise to build the most persuasive case for his preferred alternative. What is being suggested is that Harris did not adequately build that case.

What he said.

[MajorDad]

I would like to take issue with the statement that grunsfield blew this team up. his name wasn't grunsfield. ray Allen and And big Dog forced one trade by going over his head straight to kohl and demanded it's either him or me. Big Dog was sent packing. Karl thought payton could play defense and he also thought he could convince payton to resign wwith the Bucks. The only reason that trade was made was because of karl's promise. Grunfield was then ordered to trade Cassell by Kohl for whatever he could get for him.

Even with karl and Grunfeild, Kohl was still meddling in the affairs of the GM.

as for meddling owners, it's become known Mr A wanted to spend his money on a quality pitcher and that's why Suppan is a brewer. other than that, he's basically done what an owner should do - shake hands and open his wallet.

If Kohl believes he has t o rubber stamp every move a gm makes, the n why have a GM? why not just let a real gm poster go up to him with some trade ideas. it would be a lot cheaper and make many Bucks fans happy.

[jerrod]

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jerrod, you are really off the mark here. Superordinates as a rule require justifications from subordinates regarding major decisions, even if the subordinate has more expertise in the area of the decision. The subordinate is responsible to use that expertise to build the most persuasive case for his preferred alternative. What is being suggested is that Harris did not adequately build that case.

we have no idea what kind of case was built, for all we know lh presented a great case, maybe he had a powerpoint presentation and cost benefit spreadsheets but kohl decided he didn't want carlos boozer because he supposedly cheated a felllow really old guy.

i don't think it's right to assume that the trades didn't happen because lh didn't present a compelling enough case. he's supposed to be an nba gm not a lawyer, apparently that's what kohl wants so that's why he turns to ron walter

[Epicurus]

Well, jerrod, I never assumed that, but merely related what is normal in a superordinate and subordinate matter, about which you seem uninformed. Other professionals than lawyers make cases for their preferred positions in organizations. Part of being a professional is to know your field well enough that you can offer compelling arguments.

[LISTEN2JAZZ]

True, Ron Walter is a lawyer, so he's probably always able to make a better case for his ideas.