Which Player do we Draft

[Ballings7]

What exactly don't you get?
Petrie drafted Corliss, Peja, Hedo, Wallace and the french dude at SF, and Garcia, Martin Douby at SG, he used Hedo to get himself center to replace Vlade, he can use Kevin to get himself another piece, I wouldn't put it past Petrie to exploit the Chicago situation and Trade Martin for Gordon and one of their big men, adding good talent is much better than gambling on the athletic bums you keep throwing their names, what did Simmons, Armstrong, O'Bryant, CharlieV, SSwift or any big man with "athleticism" and "agility" done? What player would you rather have Nick Collison or Stromile Swift? No, I'd rather draft based on basketball ability and not blindly gamble on a repeatedly losing horse.

I already have explained why I don't like Kevin Love for this team (paired with Hawes), multiple times. Because of that, I don't get it, and won't get it.

Simmons hasn't had a fair chance yet to develop or play, and isn't a legit lottery-type talent. He would of went lower in a more typical, better draft, as well. 2006 was a weak draft.

Armstrong I just liked in general as a big man, didn't really see him as a long-term starter or something. Though he might able to be that as a helper big man next to a star big man.

O'Bryant hasn't had a fair chance yet to develop or play, and isn't a stand-out athlete (which doesn't mean he can't be something). I never saw him as relevant for us because his draft area was too high. Of course since Spencer, he's irrelevant for us.

Never been into Villanueva, he's a pure tweener foward (as a starter, not in a good way), and plays pretty soft. Not my kind of player. If not on a run n' gun kind of team at PF (which ultimately doesn't work in the way of contending), he's best suited as a 6th man. Which in the reserve role, I'm fine with him.

Swift I've never really been into much, ever. Don't like him a lot, don't dislike him. He's clearly a bust.

Of course I'd rather have Collison over Swift. Collison's a better player.

Also, outside of around the 06 draft with Armstrong I haven't brought him up with us. Never really brought up O'Bryant for this team. Never have with Villanueva, and in discussion about him relating to us (various trade proposals by people), I've gone against him. Never really brought up Stromile Swift for this team, either. With Simmons, I have numerous times, but the last time I did was 2-3 months ago, and he isn't that relevant for us anymore. Getting Shelden playing into that, along with getting a big man from the draft. Generally, I still do like Simmons athleticism and up-side, and think with a consistent, decent oppurtunity he can be an above-average complementary big man in this league.

You're bringing up general things of the past that are irrelevant to this topic about Kevin Love, in the scenario of being paired with Spencer. Because, I would guess that'd be a main part of why we'd draft Love.

If the plan isn't to pair with him Spencer, then, I'm into it (or would become so). But again, with drafting Love would probably be to pair him with Hawes for the extended future. And if it wasn't, of the two, I'd rather Spencer because of his size.

I think my feelings on Love for the Kings (w/ Hawes) are legitimate and the truth (as there are certain facts involved, as well as favorabilities), so I'm not going to be buying into Kevin Love for this team.

[_SRV_]

It is relevant, I have 2 points:
1. you're saying Love doesn't fit with Hawes, well, Hedo didn't fit with Peja, having Gracia, Douby and Martin (and Salmons and Artest at that) is redundant, but Petrie did it anyway, why? Because, he wants someone he believes in rather than shooting in the dark for one in a 100 player.
2. Athleticism dictates a lot of your views of players, and I find that stupid really, other than the mega stars like Howard which are usually gone by the 5th pick and we're drafting way beyond, drafting big men based on athleticism is destined to failure and rarely works, the talent you'll find at the middle whether it's guards or big men without your precious athleticism are better than the guys that are usually drafted in that range.
Take a step back from your blind bias towards players' physique, there are better ways to draft.
I don't know who Petrie will pick, I do know that compared to you, it will have a lot less to do with raw athleticism and size, and more with basketball skill.

[RoyalCourtJestr]

Kevin Love would not help us. Period. If we go for a PF/C it'll need to be a defensive minded athletic player who compluiments Spencer, AKA McKee, DeAndre or Arthur.

Anyways, any of five guys are AOK with me... Arthur, Agustin, DeAndre (doubtful he'll fall far though), McKee or maybe Lawson.

[Dustin5566]

Kevin Love would not help us. Period. If we go for a PF/C it'll need to be a defensive minded athletic player who compluiments Spencer, AKA McKee, DeAndre or Arthur.

Anyways, any of five guys are AOK with me... Arthur, Agustin, DeAndre (doubtful he'll fall far though), McKee or maybe Lawson.

I am a big fan of D.J Augustin. Dont see the Kings going point guard in the first round unless things break down with Beno. They will get a power forward mark my words..

Arthur most likely, unless someone slips.

[Ballings7]

1. you're saying Love doesn't fit with Hawes, well, Hedo didn't fit with Peja, having Gracia, Douby and Martin (and Salmons and Artest at that) is redundant, but Petrie did it anyway, why? Because, he wants someone he believes in rather than shooting in the dark for one in a 100 player.

No. You're still bringing up irrelevant things in relation to the isolated topic of pairing Love/Hawes, and who is paired next to Spencer. Those mentioned are different players with different roles and skills. You're generalizing too much on the basis of physical ability, athleticism, in comparision to Love/Hawes, and who's going to be Hawes big man partner. All these things you've brought up differ to Love next to Hawes (except for possibly Simmons which I already covered, and is in the past), and don't have relevance.

2. Athleticism dictates a lot of your views of players, and I find that stupid really, other than the mega stars like Howard which are usually gone by the 5th pick and we're drafting way beyond, drafting big men based on athleticism is destined to failure and rarely works, the talent you'll find at the middle whether it's guards or big men without your precious athleticism are better than the guys that are usually drafted in that range.
Take a step back from your blind bias towards players' physique, there are better ways to draft.
I don't know who Petrie will pick, I do know that compared to you, it will have a lot less to do with raw athleticism and size, and more with basketball skill.

I don't majorly consider physical attributes, athletic ability for players that I'd like, do like. With the draft or not.

Considering Artest, Duncan, Deron Williams, Carlos Boozer, Paul Millsap, Kirk Hinrich, Bruce Bowen, Udonis Haslem, Brandon Roy, Tony Parker (very quick, but not a good jumper), Billups, Pierce, Posey, Brand, Andre Miller, Okafor (not a high-level athlete as a whole) consist in my group of favorite players. As well as my love for the Spurs (which goes back to the latter 1990s) and Bulls (which goes back to the early and mid 1990s and *gap* 2004). Neither of those franchises have been loaded with athletes, physical specimens, or have been overly athletic teams. The teams had certain players partially from the rosters, but not the main make-up of the squads and large reliance on physical ability. I also like DJ Augustin for us in the case of a PG, and he's not a big-time athlete or something. Also is under-sized some, height-wise. While Darren Collison (who I also would like for us) is known athletically, he doesn't have a lot of mass size-wize. Also considering I didn't like Al Thornton for us because he probably wouldn't be compatible enough next to Kevin, due to certain weak areas and question marks. Also, Hawes was in my top group (in top two) for who I wanted us to draft before the draft and as the draft led up to #10.

You're exaggerating and being ignorant towards my posts and views as a whole. Over generalization. Of course physical make-up and ability isn't what matters most, but it is of course needed in certain ways, and needed to be involved in parts of a team, in a key part to credibly contending in this league.

It's just for the specific situation with this team, being who's next to Hawes (assuming he's going to a long-term part of the team, which is at least favorable), again, Hawes will need a player next to him who complements him well. Love only partially does that, his mobility isn't above-average. Not a leaper. Not going to be significant defender, or having the type of level of ability on defense that's needed. Love's redundant for us next to Spencer, being an offensively-biased, lacking mobility and athleticism big man.

A good deal of the time having significant mobility, athleticism, respectable amount of size, comes with strong defensive ability. Aside from the mind-set aspect of defense and rebounding. A player needing to have some kind of combination of those aformentioned things, in a consistently effective way to be a very solid/skilled defender. Thus, defense needs to be a part of the player's game next to Hawes, along with some kind of offensive game. Since it's unlikely we'd get a big who's a terrific defender, but has an average or minimal offensive game. Where his defense and rebounding forces him to start.

As I've said in the past, Hawes isn't going to be a poor or even ordinary defensive player. But, rebounding, defense isn't going to be a top part of his game. Where it sticks out consistently, something he'll be known for like his offense. Hawes isn't going to be a bad defender, but a defender who's limited in how much he can do.

With Love/Hawes you're going to get an unbalanced, uncomplementing PF/C pairing. With the defensive capability between the two that has a ceiling, and that level on that side of the court isn't going to be enough. There needs to be a seperation, an increase of defensive ability and agility from the big man next to Hawes. The compatability between Love/Hawes, overall, isn't going to be there enough because of the defensive side of the floor. Relating to the physical limitations of Hawes and Love. Ultimately, I don't see them favoring to be a title contending PF/C combo, in the future.

This is a situation of the kind of player I'd like paired next to Hawes. That being a big man who defends and rebounds well as a notable part of his game. I know and have put out there numerous times in the past that athleticism isn't the only requirement for that, because you need a balanced make-up consisting of agility, size, and the mental aspect. Maybe being better in certain areas than others, or ideally, having a similar amount of presence with all of them, or all but one. The mental aspect being there to refine the athleticism and decision making, to be a defender and rebounder that is relatively smart and solid in playing.

Quit overreacting, and having too expanded of an approach to my stand-point on the kind of big man that's required next to Hawes.

[SacKingZZZ]

I see Mareese Speights has re-entered the mock on NBAdraft.net. I hope he declares. I think he is one of the best big men prospects in the draft. He really reminds me of Al Jefferson both physically (not as bulky though) and skill wise, I would take him over Love and Arthur.

I still think Richard Hendrix is going to be the steal of the draft if he declares. Some mocks I have see have him going in the second round, man that would be sweet if we could nab him with one of our 2nd rounders! Depending on how he does in workouts I'd still be happy for us to take him with our #12 or #13 pick.

Watched a little bit of Javale McGee and I am impressed. He is reminds me of Marcus Camby but maybe a little more offensive potential. Athletic as all heck for a 7 footer and if he is there at 12 we have to take this guy, period.

[KF10]

If Beno leaves...It is ideal to draft a PG...It's really a toss up between Augustine and Collison...Eh, I think I go with Collison by a hair... If dont go to the PG route, Arthur is a good pick...A Hawes/Arthur combo will be good/great for our future froncourt IMO...

I really want another mid-1st pick...I like to pick up another complementary player...

[Ballings7]

I see Mareese Speights has re-entered the mock on NBAdraft.net. I hope he declares. I think he is one of the best big men prospects in the draft. He really reminds me of Al Jefferson both physically (not as bulky though) and skill wise, I would take him over Love and Arthur.

I still think Richard Hendrix is going to be the steal of the draft if he declares. Some mocks I have see have him going in the second round, man that would be sweet if we could nab him with one of our 2nd rounders! Depending on how he does in workouts I'd still be happy for us to take him with our #12 or #13 pick.

Watched a little bit of Javale McGee and I am impressed. He is reminds me of Marcus Camby but maybe a little more offensive potential. Athletic as all heck for a 7 footer and if he is there at 12 we have to take this guy, period.

I forgot about Speights, and while I haven't actually seen him, I dig what I've read.

I agree about McGee, as well.

I don't know much about Hendrix.

[_SRV_]

No. You're still bringing up irrelevant things in relation to the isolated topic of pairing Love/Hawes, and who is paired next to Spencer. Those mentioned are different players with different roles and skills. You're generalizing too much on the basis of physical ability, athleticism, in comparision to Love/Hawes, and who's going to be Hawes big man partner. All these things you've brought up differ to Love next to Hawes (except for possibly Simmons which I already covered, and is in the past), and don't have relevance.

Ballings, and I'm saying this in the nicest way possible because you seem to take criticism too personal, take your head out of your ass and try to understand what you read, keeping saying something is irrelevant doesn't make it less relevant, I'm not gonna agree with you no matter how you keep repeating your mantra of "balance", "agility" and "athleticism".
if Petrie can draft a SF when he had 2 young SFs who don't fit with each other, and draft a SG when he has 2 young SGs, he can draft a PF when there is another project center on his roster whose this PF doesn't complement.

**Very long post that contains nothing new.**

Blah blah blah, you still have a knack at glorifying every athletic 6'9"+ player, and you still assume that drafting Love means we're building on Love/Hawes front court, which means that anything I said completely went over your head, good job.

[BMiller52]

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Blah blah blah, you still have a knack at glorifying every athletic 6'9"+ player, and you still assume that drafting Love means we're building on Love/Hawes front court, which means that anything I said completely went over your head, good job.

The difference between Hedo when we had Gerald and Peja is back then we were looking for the BPA instead of a guy who might help us down the road. We were contending for the title and wanted a guy who could give us an immediate boost right away. And you brought up Garcia, but we didn't really have any clue Martin would be good then. We had just lost DC for Mobley, then we lost Mobley. The situations were different. Kenny finished that season playing well at PF and we had our sights set on SAR(actually went after Stro Swift also in FA) so we were planning to get a PF in free agency. SG was our #1 need and we thought we were a contender still. Now we're trying to fill out our roster. We have holes at every position besides SG/SF/C. Trying to get a PF who doesn't compliment our C is just counter productive bro, it sets us back because we're still gonna need a PG and then we're still gonna need a center. We should be focused on filling out atleast starters at 4 positions for the next 5 years. Drafting Love means we're going to set that goal back a year.

[BMiller52]

If Beno leaves...It is ideal to draft a PG...It's really a toss up between Augustine and Collison...Eh, I think I go with Collison by a hair... If dont go to the PG route, Arthur is a good pick...A Hawes/Arthur combo will be good/great for our future froncourt IMO...

I really want another mid-1st pick...I like to pick up another complementary player...

Too bad the draft is before FA so we can't decide if we need to go with a PG or PF. One thing I like about the NFL over the NBA is that free agency is before the draft, so you pick out some contributors at positions of need in free agency and then you draft the rest.

I think Augustin is a lot better than Collison because he's faster, a better shooter(better form on his shot), a better ball handler, a better passer, and he's a really great offensive PG. Collison I've changed my opinion about some, but he still doesn't strike me too much as a standout player.

I agree that Arthur is a really good pick for a guy next to Hawes though.

I'm hoping Russel Westbrook declares, he reminds me a lot of Devin Harris. Athletic 6'3'' PG that's a good passer and defender.

[_SRV_]

When you're picking at 12 BMiller, you're (most probably) not gonna a franchise guy at this spot, take a look at past drafts, there aren't any good big men in the pick's range (except Biedrins from GS).
If you take a gamble at sleeper (Love for exmaple, but not necessarily) you can groom him into player and trade him for someone you want.
We shouldn't have been looking for the BPA in the past years based on your approach, the team like it always was, was real thin upfront, we could've used an extra big man, and Vlade was clearly nearing the end of his career, but no, we drafted Hedo, who turned into Miller, I'd say it worked out well.

[KF10]

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Too bad the draft is before FA so we can't decide if we need to go with a PG or PF. One thing I like about the NFL over the NBA is that free agency is before the draft, so you pick out some contributors at positions of need in free agency and then you draft the rest.

I think Augustin is a lot better than Collison because he's faster, a better shooter(better form on his shot), a better ball handler, a better passer, and he's a really great offensive PG. Collison I've changed my opinion about some, but he still doesn't strike me too much as a standout player.

I agree that Arthur is a really good pick for a guy next to Hawes though.

I'm hoping Russel Westbrook declares, he reminds me a lot of Devin Harris. Athletic 6'3'' PG that's a good passer and defender.

Yeah, I really like Augustine but Collison strikes me as a PG that could run a team better, a better floor general than Augustine... Anyways, I dont agree that Augustine is faster then Collison... it is somewhat close but Collison is still faster then him...Collison seems to blow by any PG at will when needed IMO... So, ehh...

Yeah, if we Westbrook drops to us...I get him in a heartbeat...He is going to be special IMO... Westbrook is that athletic, balanced PG that we need...

I really want Arthur and Collison...I hope Petrie works his magic during draft night...

[BMiller52]

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Yeah, I really like Augustine but Collison strikes me as a PG that could run a team better, a better floor general than Augustine... Anyways, I dont agree that Augustine is faster then Collison... it is somewhat close but Collison is still faster then him...Collison seems to blow by any PG at will when needed IMO... So, ehh...

Yeah, if we Westbrook drops to us...I get him in a heartbeat...He is going to be special IMO... Westbrook is that athletic, balanced PG that we need...

I really want Arthur and Collison...I hope Petrie works his magic during draft night...

I dunno man, Ty Lawson has them both beat as far as speed goes. But Augustin is an amazing offensive general. Dude reminds me of Steve Nash at times with his court vision, ball handling, shooting, and passing. IMO Augustin is like 2pac and Collison is like 50 Cent.

[Ballings7]

Ballings, and I'm saying this in the nicest way possible because you seem to take criticism too personal, take your head out of your ass and try to understand what you read, keeping saying something is irrelevant doesn't make it less relevant,

I didn't take it as criticism or personally, there isn't any reason for me to do so. Given what was stated from both sides. That's simply your mis-assumption of how I felt, and as indicated by "seemingly".

How I took it was, the stuff said just didn't relate to what was being discussed (Kevin Love and the Kings scenarios), and told you what my position was from what you posted to me, anyway. As I relayed in posting earlier.

I'm not gonna agree with you no matter how you keep repeating your mantra of "balance", "agility" and "athleticism".

I understand, but that's part of what I wanted and had to say in response to you.

if Petrie can draft a SF when he had 2 young SFs who don't fit with each other, and draft a SG when he has 2 young SGs, he can draft a PF when there is another project center on his roster whose this PF doesn't complement.

Not the same when it's two starting big men involved. Given Hawes and Love's up-side and talent. That's why bringing up what you brought up about the wing-players (of different kinds with different roles and abilities) doesn't relate here.

Typically, how successful your team is, is dictated primarily by your big men.

Blah blah blah, you still have a knack at glorifying every athletic 6'9"+ player,

No, I don't. You'll just continue to be ignorant and wrong there.

and you still assume that drafting Love means we're building on Love/Hawes front court, which means that anything I said completely went over your head, good job.

Well, the only two things I've discussed with Kevin Love for us, is either with Hawes or without him. In the past, and in this thread. But you replied to me about what I didn't get about Love for us, which I specified originally in him being with this team. Which as I've established in the past, means being a part of this team with Hawes or without him, for the longer-term future. So on that, I furthered my points and feelings about Love for this team.

I assume that in drafting Love, a main part in doing so would be to pair him with Spencer. It's certainly a legit possibility given the talent of the two, and relating to some things Theus has talked about during his early tenure here about the offense. I'd prefer not, though, if we did draft Love.

he can use Kevin to get himself another piece, I wouldn't put it past Petrie to exploit the Chicago situation and Trade Martin for Gordon and one of their big men, adding good talent is much better

I responded to that with this:

If the plan isn't to pair with him Spencer, then, I'm into it (or would become so). *snip* And if it wasn't, of the two, I'd rather Spencer because of his size.

What you said there was in my intentions above. As I assumed there you meant Love can be in a scenario like that, as well, in a possiblility in drafting. To be traded for something.

But, as a whole in this back and forth, I just replied with my knowledge and thoughts in relation to what you posted to me. Whether it was relevant or not, I addressed it.

In doing a go over of this for a few minutes, I don't see anything that went over my head. I don't know if what you think I missed matters anymore, but regardless, all this isn't really going anywhere anymore, too

Also, there's no need to get annoyed/emotional in your intent, with the "take your head out of your ass", "blah, blah, blah", "good job *sarcasm*", and the violin emoticon. It's just civil explanation and discussion here. The only thing that kind of stuff does is put out immaturity. Just an unecessary mind-set to have in a pretty simple setting.

[BMiller52]

This Ballings/SRV argument is about the funniest I've seen on here .

[_SRV_]

Not the same when it's two starting big men involved. Given Hawes and Love's up-side and talent. That's why bringing up what you brought up about the wing-players (of different kinds with different roles and abilities) doesn't relate here.

Typically, how successful your team is, is dictated primarily by your big men.

Who said anything about starting when Hawes is barely getting any minutes? Why are you making up stuff?
Regardless, didn't Vlade and Miller backed up by freaking Songaila start for a very successful Kings team? Aren't Boozer and Okur starting for a very successful Utah team? Which one between Hayes and Yao Ming, has the "athleticism and agility" and how do they complement each other?
And what's with the random statements "Typically, how successful your team is, is dictated primarily by your big men.", is this going to justify a probable bust over a useful player? Regardless, this weak sauce explanation of yours doesn't make the example "bringing up irrelevant things".

Also, there's no need to get annoyed/emotional in your intent, with the "take your head out of your ass", "blah, blah, blah", "good job *sarcasm*", and the violin emoticon. It's just civil explanation and discussion here. The only thing that kind of stuff does is put out immaturity. Just an unecessary mind-set to have in a pretty simple setting.

People don't get annoyed based on need, and sarcasm is a way of life, deal with it.

[_SRV_]

This Ballings/SRV argument is about the funniest I've seen on here .

It's casual entertainment, we aim to please anyway I'm out, we've been through this like 100 times, and the only conclusion I have is that humans are stubborn creatures.

[KF10]

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I dunno man, Ty Lawson has them both beat as far as speed goes. But Augustin is an amazing offensive general. Dude reminds me of Steve Nash at times with his court vision, ball handling, shooting, and passing. IMO Augustin is like 2pac and Collison is like 50 Cent.

Yeah, I think Lawson is quicker than both of them...But I think that he is not going to declare this year... I think is that matter of preference of PGs...I like my PG that plays great defense and has a steady game like Collison...Augustin is a great PG and I wont be disturbed if Petrie picked him over Collison....So, eh...

[ICMTM]

Darrel Arthur is the way to go IMO.

I agree! If Beno is supposed to be the guy at point then why draft for that position?