Defenders v. High Scorers 2

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Defenders v. High Scorers 2 

Post#1 » by penbeast0 » Fri Mar 21, 2008 8:10 pm

Defenders were picked from the last couple of years All-Defense teams with anyone who scored over 15 ppg eliminated. I am using Hinrich instead of Raja Bell at SG because the extra passing may help create shots and Kirilenko at PF despite his weak rebounding this year. For this team to win, Kirilenko has to go back to his old 16/8/3 form and Camby has to impact the great slashers from the offense team. . . and someone has to hit jump shots.

High Scorers were picked from the list of the NBA's top scorers this year and were supposed to be guys who were scorers who created their own shots and weren't known for good defense (so not guys like Boozer or Amare who play pick and roll with great PGs or Michael Redd who is a catch and shoot guy). For this team to win, Crawford has to be able to set the offense up against Kidd/Hinrich and the slashers have to be able to create spacing for the offense.

Defenders Team (P/R/A eFG PER)

Marcus Camby 9.4/12.6/3.1 .461 17.9
Andrei Kirilenko 11.2/4.8/4.2 .539 17.3
Tayshaun Prince 13.8/4.7/3.4 .479 15.9
Kirk Hinrich 12.2 / 3.5 / 6.0 .463 13.1
Jason Kidd 10.6 / 7.7 / 10.2 .450 16.3

High Scorers Team

Pau Gasol 18.9 / 8.5 / 3.1 .527 21.5
Antawn Jamison 21.7/10.3/1.5 .475 20.5
Corey Maggette 22.4/5.7/2.8 .509 20.0
Jason Richardson 20.8/5.2/3.0 .516 17.5
Jamal Crawford 20.3/2.7/4.9 .468 15.4

Assuming good health and weak benches, which team has the better record at the end of the year.
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Post#2 » by NetsForce » Fri Mar 21, 2008 8:15 pm

I really like the High Scorers big men options, but I question whether players like Crawful and Maggette would consistently get Jamison and Gasol the ball.

I also don't like the Richardson - Hinrich matchup for the Defenders team but Kidd vs. Crawford is massacre for them...
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Post#3 » by tsherkin » Fri Mar 21, 2008 8:19 pm

"Kirk" Hinrich...

Other than that, I think maybe the high scorers team might win simply because J-Kidd isn't as good on D as he used to be and is incompetent under the arc as a scorer and the rest of those guys would be mightily inefficient in high-volume scoring roles as well.

Maggette, Richardson and Gasol are all mediocre to average defenders, and Crawford can be as well when he decides it's important.

And Jamison's defensive weakness would not be exploited by Kirilenko, so it's a moot point.

Tough call but I think the scorers might win because you've sabotaged them of the ability to score instead of making it an even comparison by adding guys who can score a little... even like Ron Artest or Chauncey Billups to make things at least passingly fair.
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Post#4 » by tsherkin » Fri Mar 21, 2008 8:20 pm

NetsForce wrote:I really like the High Scorers big men options, but I question whether players like Crawful and Maggette would consistently get Jamison and Gasol the ball.


Good point, but remember that Gasol can shoot and enjoys doing so, so he'd be fine taking shots in the 15- to 20-foot range and there, he'd get the ball even if Crawful (nice!) wouldn't give him re-posts and such.
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Post#5 » by hermes » Fri Mar 21, 2008 9:24 pm

i think the scorers would win
because at the end of the day defense only wins championships if you score more than the other team
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Post#6 » by penbeast0 » Fri Mar 21, 2008 9:50 pm

tsherkin wrote:"Kirk" Hinrich...

Other than that, I think maybe the high scorers team might win simply because J-Kidd isn't as good on D as he used to be and is incompetent under the arc as a scorer and the rest of those guys would be mightily inefficient in high-volume scoring roles as well.

Maggette, Richardson and Gasol are all mediocre to average defenders, and Crawford can be as well when he decides it's important.

And Jamison's defensive weakness would not be exploited by Kirilenko, so it's a moot point.

Tough call but I think the scorers might win because you've sabotaged them of the ability to score instead of making it an even comparison by adding guys who can score a little... even like Ron Artest or Chauncey Billups to make things at least passingly fair.


Actually, tried to use guys who had some offensive game like Kirilenko and Prince, rather than guys who had none like Ben Wallace and Bruce Bowen, but didn't think a 20 point scorer like Artest on the defense team made it reasonable any more than a guy with an all-defense nomination on the scorers team.
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Post#7 » by tsherkin » Fri Mar 21, 2008 9:57 pm

penbeast0 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



Actually, tried to use guys who had some offensive game like Kirilenko and Prince, rather than guys who had none like Ben Wallace and Bruce Bowen, but didn't think a 20 point scorer like Artest on the defense team made it reasonable any more than a guy with an all-defense nomination on the scorers team.


Yeah but Prince is a guy who clearly couldn't handle being the #1 option and likewise Kirilenko.

My point is that the guys on the defensive squad COULDN'T consistently win... they'd be too inefficient, they simply wouldn't have the offensive wherewithal to even attempt to win consistently against those guys. They don't have any shooters besides Hinrich and he's not a guy who has it in him to score efficiently in bulk... hell, even at the volumes he shoots in Chicago, he's shot under 40% twice and under 42% two other times in his 5-year career (5th in progress).

This is like asking who'd win in 1-on-1... Dikembe Mutombo or Walt Bellamy?
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Post#8 » by tha_rock220 » Sat Mar 22, 2008 1:18 am

It baseball you can go farther with good pitching and limited hitting than with average pitching and great hitting. In football a good defense generally stops a good offense. Basketball is different because individual talent can take over so much of a game so if you can't score you really can't win. So I'll go with team offense.
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Post#9 » by penbeast0 » Sat Mar 22, 2008 2:05 am

Not saying you are wrong, that's the whole point of this thread to ask that question, I think they'd be an above .500 team but not a title contender personally.

There is another question presented too . . . would a bunch of high scoring, mediocre defence, isolation happy slashers (though I like Jamison and Gasol) with no true playmakers be even more ineffective? . . . a question no one seems to be addressing in the focus on the defensive team.
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Post#10 » by tsherkin » Sat Mar 22, 2008 2:34 am

penbeast0 wrote:Not saying you are wrong, that's the whole point of this thread to ask that question, I think they'd be an above .500 team but not a title contender personally.


Above .500, absolutely. They'd rebound and defend too well NOT to be above .500.

But they wouldn't even contend for a division title in most divisions, let alone contend for a title.

There is another question presented too . . . would a bunch of high scoring, mediocre defence, isolation happy slashers (though I like Jamison and Gasol) with no true playmakers be even more ineffective? . . . a question no one seems to be addressing in the focus on the defensive team.


Well, I think you've nailed it in noting that Jamison and Gasol aren't that type of player. Jamison, like Marion, is well-known for his ability to manufacture shots simply from good off-ball movement and timing, as well as his range. Gasol is much the same way, only he's also very good in the pick-and-roll and has magnet hands AND can post-up.

And then you've looked to Crawford and Kirk Hinrich (Hinrich being a very willing and capable distributor, which would actually put Crawford in the 2-guard role).

Hinrich's a very underrated playmaker, for the most part. He's not a great scorer but he passes well and can hit the outside shot well enough to keep a defense honest.

The offensive team is built a lot more intelligently than the defensive team, that's the big problem.
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Post#11 » by penbeast0 » Sat Mar 22, 2008 3:55 am

mmm, Hinrich is on the defensive team playing next to Kidd; the offensive team has Crawford at the point and Jason Richardson and Corey Maggette on the wing . . . neither of whom create much for anyone else. So, Crawford is the creator, Gasol the pivot, Jamison the garbage man, Richardson and Maggette the iso scorers (mediocre outside shooting too).

Defensive team has to have Kirilenko and Hinrich step up their offensive games to back to their peaks. If they can both be 16-18 ppgs players, a lack of scoring won't be a huge problem . . . and with Kidd feeding them and the team speed, that should be doable. Their shot creation isn't any worse than former NBA champion Detroit . . .

The front line of Camby/Kirilenko/Prince is probably offensively more creative than Ben/Rasheed/Prince with better passing and ballhandling skills. The back line of Kidd/Hinrich is a lot better at creating for others than Billups/Hamilton, though not as good at creating for themselves. They aren't as effecient as Detroit in scoring, mainly due to the TSP between Kidd and Billups, but as a lineup they are better passers and not far behind in shot creation. Should be enough to contend . . . again, if Hinrich and Kirilenko return to peak form.
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Post#12 » by tsherkin » Sat Mar 22, 2008 8:39 am

penbeast0 wrote:mmm, Hinrich is on the defensive team playing next to Kidd; the offensive team has Crawford at the point and Jason Richardson and Corey Maggette on the wing . . . neither of whom create much for anyone else. So, Crawford is the creator, Gasol the pivot, Jamison the garbage man, Richardson and Maggette the iso scorers (mediocre outside shooting too).


Sorry, brain-melting, not enough sleep, going insane.


:D
Their shot creation isn't any worse than former NBA champion Detroit . . .


Ah, no?

Richard Hamilton and Chauncey Billups are both better at creating shots than anyone on the defensive team... Hamilton because of his off-ball movement and Billups in all aspects of the concept, be it through dribble penetration or guard post-ups.

The front line of Camby/Kirilenko/Prince is probably offensively more creative than Ben/Rasheed/Prince with better passing and ballhandling skills.


Nope.

Rasheed himself is better than either Kirilenko or Camby. Camby has nothing but tip-slams and a crappy mid-range jumper.

Kirilenko has a shaky mid-range J and some post up skills but really, he's Ben Wallace with a shaky mid-range J and some FT shooting ability and Wallace is better than Kirilenko by enough that it doesn't matter.

The back line of Kidd/Hinrich is a lot better at creating for others than Billups/Hamilton, though not as good at creating for themselves.


True, but that's because they are two point guards as opposed to a PG and a 2-guard.

They aren't as effecient as Detroit in scoring, mainly due to the TSP between Kidd and Billups, but as a lineup they are better passers and not far behind in shot creation. Should be enough to contend . . . again, if Hinrich and Kirilenko return to peak form.


No, not really. Hinrich has never been a good enough scorer for that to be true and Kirilenko has ALWAYS built his game off of superior scorers.
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Post#13 » by Jemini80 » Sat Mar 22, 2008 8:59 am

i laugh when people include Crawford on a list of high scorers, considering his career FG% is the same as Jason Kidd. The very good defensive team wins, considering bad defenders can make people look like good scorers. If you do not believe this, watch the Knicks play every night. The high scorers have no interior D, Jamison and Gasol are some of the worst defensive forwards in the league. Richardson isn't that bad on defense, but Crawford makes up for it with his horrible defense. Maggette i just don't know, his team is really bad. The high scorer team would give up lay-up after lay-up to Kirk, Kidd, and Prince.
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Post#14 » by penbeast0 » Sat Mar 22, 2008 1:28 pm

tsherkin wrote:-= original quote snipped =-
No, not really. Hinrich has never been a good enough scorer for that to be true and Kirilenko has ALWAYS built his game off of superior scorers.


My point was the Ben Wallace was terrible enough offensively that the difference between him and Camby was greater than the difference between Rasheed and Kirilenko. Hinrich you may be right about though playing off Jason Kidd might improve the various players scoring through getting better shots.

However, you are wrong about Kirilenko. Not only was he the main man on the Russian team so he is used to being a primary scorer, but his highest scoring year in Utah, he was playing with a lineup of Carlos Arroyo, DeShawn Stevenson, Greg Ostertag and either Jarron Collins or Matt Harpring (no WONDER he scored more, lol). Which of these guys is the superior scorer Kirilenko built his game around?
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Post#15 » by CBS7 » Sat Mar 22, 2008 5:54 pm

Hinrich from last year, the defensive team would win. He averaged nearly 17 ppg on 45 FG% and 42 3PT%.

This year's Hinrich has been a disappointment.
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Post#16 » by tsherkin » Sat Mar 22, 2008 10:38 pm

penbeast0 wrote:
However, you are wrong about Kirilenko. Not only was he the main man on the Russian team


Totally irrelevant, since that's an entirely different kind of league.

so he is used to being a primary scorer, but his highest scoring year in Utah, he was playing with a lineup of Carlos Arroyo, DeShawn Stevenson, Greg Ostertag and either Jarron Collins or Matt Harpring (no WONDER he scored more, lol). Which of these guys is the superior scorer Kirilenko built his game around?


I presume you're discussing the 03-04 season, when he dropped 16.5 ppg?

On the lowest FG% of his entire career and one of the lowest TS%s of his career?

Harpring was the best scorer on that team, that doesn't speak highly of Kirilenko. He didn't actually play all that well that year and he was working in a more traditional Utah PF role to do a lot of what he did. He's not that good as a scorer.

Moreover, this peak you discuss is hardly worth mentioning; as the "go-to" scorer on the team (which he wasn't, since Harpring took more shots per game and got more possessions per game anyway), he couldn't even hit 18 ppg in a system designed for a PF with a jumper and the ability to roll to the rim.

That's actually pretty sad, all told. He got outscored by an unathletic, injury-prone perimeter player... who was markedly more efficient, at that.
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Post#17 » by penbeast0 » Sun Mar 23, 2008 12:09 am

If you are going to call me out on facts, please check them first.

(a) That season was completely in line with the two seasons around it in terms of scoring except for his playing more minutes and shooting a lower percentage. The level of around 16 ppg/35 minutes was his established career norm until the last couple of years where Boozer became the focal point of the offense and Andrei was relegated to 4th option behind Boozer, Deron Williams, and Okur. His efficiency, like most of the defensive team, isn't great but it's a question of differential. Like the bad boy Pistons, an average offensive efficiency combined with an excellent defensive efficiency is a winning combination.

(b) Harpring played in less than half the team's games that year and scored less per minute than Kirilenko. The only one who scored appreciably more per minute than Kirilenko was Gordon Giricek (who also played less than 1/2 the team's games) although the scoring was very balanced among the 4 non-center positions (ie. not Greg Ostertag/Jarron Collins).

(c) oh and one more thing. His PG wasn't Stockton or Deron Williams, it was Carlos Arroyo; that may have made a difference.
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Post#18 » by BrooklynBulls » Sun Mar 23, 2008 12:23 am

I'd say the scorers would win more games. Pau Gasol could be that team's passing hub, and there would be enough of a perimeter threat in Jamison, Richardson, and Crawford that there would be room to work down low. Frankly, Gasol and Richardson are not awful defenders, and Jamison's defense this year is a marked improvement.

The defensive has too many defensive flaws. Camby and Kirilenko will simply get killed by big strong players...their strengths are redundant. Shot-blocking, passing, weakside defense and transition defense are what these players excel at, yet there is no post-defender or good man-defender at the PF/C spots. Tayshaun, too, has problems with heavier, stonger players. Ditto Hinrich. This team would simply get pushed around all game.

Kidd would be utterly ineffective offensively in this system because he doesn't have the explosive around-the-basket athletes to exploit that he usually enjoys. Nor does he have the shooters to space the floor for his playmaking, nor does he have the scorers he must have in order to offset his limited ability in that area.

If we're assuming Hinrich is THIS year's Hinrich, he's not even a good defensive player. As a Bulls fan, I would know. He has been mediocre to awful all year defensively, with the same story offensively. Jamal Crawford is probably having the better season, as sad as that is to say.
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Post#19 » by tsherkin » Sun Mar 23, 2008 10:44 pm

penbeast0 wrote:If you are going to call me out on facts, please check them first.

(a) That season was completely in line with the two seasons around it in terms of scoring except for his playing more minutes and shooting a lower percentage. The level of around 16 ppg/35 minutes was his established career norm until the last couple of years where Boozer became the focal point of the offense and Andrei was relegated to 4th option behind Boozer, Deron Williams, and Okur. His efficiency, like most of the defensive team, isn't great but it's a question of differential. Like the bad boy Pistons, an average offensive efficiency combined with an excellent defensive efficiency is a winning combination.


I'm of the opinion that if the offense is that bad, you're going to be in trouble.

Remember, the Pistons you're talking about had Isiah Thomas and Mark Aguirre, not Andrei Kirilenko, Kirk Hinrich and prayers.

Even the '04 Pistons had Chauncey Billups, Rasheed Wallace and Rip Hamilton...

The level of offense isn't sufficient, you have to have at least one really dangerous scorer, even if he isn't a huge volume scorer.

(b) Harpring played in less than half the team's games that year and scored less per minute than Kirilenko.


Let's not be disingenuous... he scored 0.1 fewer points per 36 minutes. Yes, he only played 31 games, but it was still significant.

(c) oh and one more thing. His PG wasn't Stockton or Deron Williams, it was Carlos Arroyo; that may have made a difference.


It was Arroyo's best year and he was functioning in Sloan's system, I'm not inclined to agree that it made a huge difference. Obviously, it affected the TEAM more, but not AK's individual performance.

Moreover, you're ignoring Raul Lopez, who was also pretty good that year.

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