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Our biggest weakness: Turnovers!

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Our biggest weakness: Turnovers! 

Post#1 » by BillessuR6 » Sun Mar 23, 2008 2:38 am

We have basically improved in every part of the game since the start of the season, the only thing that is still a huge problem are the turnovers. Tonight we had 9 of them in the 4th quarter! 9!!!

Experienced teams like DET have very few TO`s per game and protect the ball extremely well that is what makes them so dangerous. And if we don`t take a batter care of the ball in the playoffs we will be in trouble.

It is frustrating that in this particular area we have made no progress at all. And looking ahead at the playoff this is the biggest thing that worries me!
We simply need to cut down on TO`s in the postseason in order to have a chance of winning a championship!
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Post#2 » by Datruth345 » Sun Mar 23, 2008 2:45 am

i think it has to do with although we have played 70 games and have the best record, players still aren't familiar with each other, like the example you gave of Detroit

rondo is still a 2 year point

add in the addition of Sam Cassell and P.J and you have alot of players out there, that aren't on the same page
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Re: Our biggest weakness: Turnovers! 

Post#3 » by Matt34520 » Sun Mar 23, 2008 2:48 am

thebirdman wrote:We simply need to cut down on TO`s in the postseason in order to have a chance of winning a championship!


If you still don't think we have a chance to win a championship, you never will at this point.
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Post#4 » by Matt34520 » Sun Mar 23, 2008 2:59 am

Datruth345 wrote:i think it has to do with although we have played 70 games and have the best record, players still aren't familiar with each other,


They were familiar with each other when they swept the texas triangle. I think they just lost a regular season game like all teams do. Didn't Detroit just get beat by the 76ers recently? And the Cavs also beat them recently...
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Post#5 » by Datruth345 » Sun Mar 23, 2008 3:04 am

no....they are not familiar with each other after 70 games

i said nothing about the relationship between familiarity and winning games, you are misinterpreting my post and twisting it

i was talking in terms of turnovers, and why there are so many...and the answer is simply the offense gets stuck sometimes, because we arent totally familiar with each other, especially trying to integrate Cassell
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Post#6 » by Matt34520 » Sun Mar 23, 2008 3:17 am

I agree that Cassell and Brown are not totally in tune yet. My problem is this, and datruth this might not apply to you, so no disrespect...but I don't like how just because lost two games out of the last 16 some people act like are title hopes go down the drain. Thats rediculous, teams lose. The Celtics have been great this year. Lets not just write off the Texas sweep, just because they lost a close game to New Orleans. We are for real, and could win it all.

We beat Detroit at home and on the road. Almost swept them on the season...

We the Spurs on the road and in San Antonio...

I don't have to go any further, that should say it all. But I'll sprinkle on the best record in basketball period. And the best defense.
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Re: Our biggest weakness: Turnovers! 

Post#7 » by Big Baby » Sun Mar 23, 2008 3:25 am

Matt34520 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



If you still don't think we have a chance to win a championship, you never will at this point.


what is this BS attitude? it's perfectly reasonable for fans to point out the flaws in this team because the celtics haven't proved anything yet. 55 wins? 60 wins? texas sweep? the last time i checked, none of that $#*! counts in the postseason.
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Re: Our biggest weakness: Turnovers! 

Post#8 » by Matt34520 » Sun Mar 23, 2008 3:27 am

Big Baby wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



what is this BS attitude? it's perfectly reasonable for fans to point out the flaws in this team because the celtics haven't proved anything yet. 55 wins? 60 wins? texas sweep? the last time i checked, none of that $#*! counts in the postseason.


Looking for flaws? FINE. Suggesting they don't really have a chance at a championship? C'mon now.

Also the thing that bothers me is how some overeact after a loss. I'm not talking to anyone directly on here but some act as if the sky is falling after a loss. Teams lose, it happens to everybody in the league.
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Post#9 » by Bleeding Green » Sun Mar 23, 2008 3:41 am

This is true. Of the four factors, turnovers are the biggest weakness.

Celtics turn it over 16.7 times per 100 possession, good for 26th in the NBA. Offensive rebounding is a slight problem (ranked 20th in the NBA), but the Celtics still have the #10 offense (thanks to awesome free throw numbers and stellar eFG%) which is more than enough when coupled with easily the #1 defense.

Perkins, Tony Allen and Big Baby are (by far) the biggest TO offenders. They're probably going to see reduced minutes in the playoffs with Cassell and PJ Brown here, so that will mitigate it some, but even then they'll be middle of the pack at best.

I don't think it matters, but if you want to point out a flaw it's definitely turnovers.
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Post#10 » by Matt34520 » Sun Mar 23, 2008 3:43 am

^I agree, we do have flaws. I understand that...the problem is, not alot of time to practice.
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Re: Our biggest weakness: Turnovers! 

Post#11 » by Big Baby » Sun Mar 23, 2008 3:50 am

Matt34520 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



Looking for flaws? FINE. Suggesting they don't really have a chance at a championship? C'mon now.

Also the thing that bothers me is how some overeact after a loss. I'm not talking to anyone directly on here but some act as if the sky is falling after a loss. Teams lose, it happens to everybody in the league.


personally, i don't mind losing a game here and there, but it's the WAY WE LOSE that really bothers me. championship teams don't freeze when the other team makes a run. we do. our offense sputters and no one can make a shot for long stretches in the fourth. we can get away with it during the regular season and when we're playing teams without superstars like detroit, but it will be a different story if we have to go through the lebrons and even caron butlers in the playoffs. for a team with the best record in the league, we look awfully helpless under heavy pressure.
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Post#12 » by Matt34520 » Sun Mar 23, 2008 3:59 am

I don't know, personally I think the Celtics are the best team in basketball. I can honestly say that if I was a fan of another team I would say the same thing. I think we have proven to be for real, the texas sweep should have said it all(as far as us being real championship contenders). Hopefulley come playoff time we can step are game up and not turn the ball over as much...

There have been games were we have dealt with the pressure and still won. I think Monday's win over the Spurs was impressive. We didn't give up when were down 22, we cameback and won. I also thought it was impressive to beat Dallas while having a sub par game.
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Post#13 » by Big Baby » Sun Mar 23, 2008 4:06 am

Matt34520 wrote:I don't know, personally I think the Celtics are the best team in basketball. I can honestly say that if I was a fan of another team I would say the same thing. I think we have proven to be for real, the texas sweep should have said it all(as far as us being real championship contenders). Hopefulley come playoff time we can step are game up and not turn the ball over as much...

There have been games were we have dealt with the pressure and still won. I think Monday's win over the Spurs was impressive. We didn't give up when were down 22, we cameback and won. I also thought it was impressive to beat Dallas while having a sub par game.


we have the best "regular season" record. that doesn't make us the best team in the league. faaaaaar from it.
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Post#14 » by dwestside » Sun Mar 23, 2008 5:37 am

Big Baby wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



we have the best "regular season" record. that doesn't make us the best team in the league. faaaaaar from it.


I don't think you can squash nearly ALL the competition, and be FAAAR from the best team in the league. I do agree that the definition encompasses playoff supremacy, something the Celtics have yet to prove, but they are NOT FAR from being the best team in the league. The regular season does prove SOMETHING, though not everything, and they've passed nearly every test during it.
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Post#15 » by Al n' Perk No Layups! » Sun Mar 23, 2008 6:37 am

Boston fans FTL. Seriously, enough with the sky is falling bullcrap, we lost one game. It was a bad game, get over it.
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Post#16 » by BillessuR6 » Sun Mar 23, 2008 9:20 am

I don`t get some of you people. Have you been watching the celtics this season? It is not about having 20 TO`s in one game if that was anomaly I wouldn`t be making this thread. The problem is that we are one of the worst teams in the NBA at turning the ball over.

And just pushing this fact aside won`t make it go away. Yes, we are winning games, we are the best in the league ATM but we still need to improve to be able to win a championship. And cutting down on TO`s especially in the playoffs when the games are close is a must!

I would like to know how turnover prone championship teams are on average and where we fit in this category. Is this stat available anywhere?
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Post#17 » by BigHands » Sun Mar 23, 2008 1:10 pm

Turnovers come with the territory on a ball movement team. When a team that makes extra passes throws up a stinker TOs leading to transition baskets for the opponent are often the culprit. Thus both the offense and defensive are impacted.

The following numbers are for Celtic championship teams after 1972 (team TO data is unreliable or non-existent before that date).

Of the teams below, only the 85-86 team had fewer turnovers than their opponent.

While data for the Russell-led teams is not available, I watched those teams many times and I can assure you that the pattern was the same.


1973-74 Champions (56-26)

Only 4 teams had more turnovers than the Celtics at 21.9 TO/game (much faster league back then)

In turnover differential the Celtics were next to last (12.3% more TOs than their opponents.)


1975-76 Champions (54-28)

Only 5 teams had fewer turnovers than the Celtics at 19.6 TO/game so the Celts took better care of that ball that year.

In turnover differential however the Celtics were still next to last (13.15% more TOs than their opponents.)

1980-81 Champions (62-20)

Only 7 teams had more turnovers than the Celtics at 19.2 TO/game

In turnover differential the Celtics were 6th worst in the league (7.06% more TOs than their opponents.) The defending champion Lakers (also a ball movement team) had numbers almost identical to the Green

1983-84 Champions (62-20)

7 teams had less turnovers than the Celtics at 17.3 TO/game (again a better number - more post game with McHale and Parish)

In turnover differential the Celtics were 6th worst in the league (6.85% more TOs than their opponents. The Lakers (also a ball movement team) had numbers even worse than the Celtics in both the above categories.

1985-86 Champions (67-15)

5 teams had less turnovers than the Celtics at 16.6 TO/game.

In turnover differential the Celtics were 6th best in the league (8.11% less TOs than their opponents.

This is the first Boston championship team that had less turnovers than their opponent. With McHale now starting, Walton on the team, and Bird beginning to have back issues the team ran less.

It was also a transcendent basketball team in its mental prime. It was second in the league in total assists and 5th from the bottom in TOs. As anyone who watched that team can tell you Bird and company whipped the ball around every night and did not turn it over.
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Post#18 » by Tenbomber » Sun Mar 23, 2008 2:22 pm

Al n' Perk No Layups! wrote:Boston fans FTL. Seriously, enough with the sky is falling bullcrap, we lost one game. It was a bad game, get over it.


I sort of agree with this sentiment....

I hope that our game management improves a might...we staggered when the reserves entered at the end of the 3rd quarter.... then things just went haywire from there....

Heinson suggested that Cassell and Brown didn't bring the same energy that House or Big Baby might have?....perhaps the rotations need some work?... I thought Brown did OK....but he, like KG, needs Perk around to help him IMO....

The critical turnovers did us in for sure though... no question about that!... Pierce got picked a number of times....but it wasn't just his misfortune....the others all had a hand in that last night....
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Post#19 » by GuyClinch » Mon Mar 24, 2008 3:50 am

Turnovers come with the territory on a ball movement team. When a team that makes extra passes throws up a stinker TOs leading to transition baskets for the opponent are often the culprit. Thus both the offense and defensive are impacted.


Agreed - teams that make the 'extra pass' are going to make extra turnovers as well. I don't think it's anything we can fix.

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Re: Our biggest weakness: Turnovers! 

Post#20 » by billfromBoston » Mon Mar 24, 2008 5:53 am

thebirdman wrote:We have basically improved in every part of the game since the start of the season, the only thing that is still a huge problem are the turnovers. Tonight we had 9 of them in the 4th quarter! 9!!!

Experienced teams like DET have very few TO`s per game and protect the ball extremely well that is what makes them so dangerous. And if we don`t take a batter care of the ball in the playoffs we will be in trouble.

It is frustrating that in this particular area we have made no progress at all. And looking ahead at the playoff this is the biggest thing that worries me!
We simply need to cut down on TO`s in the postseason in order to have a chance of winning a championship!


...that may be the worst analysis i've ever seen from you birdman. Shame on you...

...I agree that the Celtics are the most INCONSISTENT amongst the contenders when it comes to TO's, which is a byproduct of their short time together in all likelihood...

..However, the team's FREQUENCY of high TO games has reduced substantially over the course of the season...I'd also like to point out that this is a stat that must be looked at on a 100 possession basis and viewed month by month to see where the team truly lies in this regard...more importantly TO DIFFERENTIAL is a key, much as rebounding differential is more indicitive of a potential problem than the pure number...

Celtics take care of the ball well-enough to defeat any team...the notion that the playoffs are a magical landscape that will suddenly expose this team is a fallacy...i'm sure the team will have some games where the number is high, but i'd imagine that will hold true for the oposition as well, and i'd wager to guess that Boston will come out on top of that battle most nights...

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