Who faced better competetion at Shooting Guard? MJ or Kobe

[Bgil]

I think some shooting guards today may handle the ball a little better,but the shooting guards in the 80s were better shooters.

Wade is a better ball handler then Mitch Richmond and Reggie Miller,but it may be more tiring guarding those guys because they run you off so many screens and they can shoot from all over the court. M

Mitch could also take you to the post

Reggie went against Kobe too. For every Mitch Richmond there's a Michael Redd, Rip Hamilton, Korver, or Ray Allen.

[Bgil]

The numerical advantages are slightly in favor of the modern players

[TNBT]

Some of you guys need to put down the crack pipe before you do some serious damage. Kobe may face better athletes, but as far as actual basketball is concerned, Jordan had the tougher competition.

[penbeast0]

Clyde was clearly better than McGrady primarily because Clyde was far more consistent. McGrady seems to be capable of playing at an extraordinarily high level for stretches but he doesn't sustain it. Clyde played the same consistent spectacular basketball for a decade, basically at a level equal to or better than McGrady's second best season . . . McGrady did have that one year in Orlando that is probably a higher peak year than Clyde's best.

As for prime AI, an undersized no defense gunner that shoots a worse percentage than the average replacement player isn't going to do much other than bring in crowds. Recently he's been much better but his "prime" years, he generally sucked.

[Gerald3Wallace]

Some of you guys need to put down the crack pipe before you do some serious damage. Kobe may face better athletes, but as far as actual basketball is concerned, Jordan had the tougher competition.

[Bgil]

If we are going to include guys like Arenas and Lebron then we can include guys like Dominique and Bird and Bernard King.

As far as competition at the SG, well here were just some of the guys.

D Wilkins -SF
B. King - SF
G Hill - SF
C Drexler
J Dumars - not worthy of mentioning
P Hardaway
M Richmond
D Majerle
R Pierce - SF
H Hawkins -
J Hornacek - not worthy of mentioning
J Stackhouse - Competed against Jordan for about 2 years and nearly a decade against Kobe
C Ceballos - SF
C Mullen - SF
X McDaniel - A SG? LOL!
E Jones
B Scott
S Smith
M Finley - 3 years against Jordan every other year against Kobe
L Sprewell - Competed against Jordan for about 5 years and nearly a decade against Kobe
D Petrovic - not worthy of the list considering he only started two seasons (he was awesome though)
N Anderson - SF
S Elliot
R Miller
G Rice - SF
R Blackman
M Aguire - mostly a SF
R Lewis
A Houston - 4 years against Jordan and the rest against Kobe
C Person - SF
J Mashburn - SF
J Starks - LOL
R Harper
V Maxwell -PG That's like putting Steve Francis on Kobe's list (although prime Francis was certainly better)
D Ellis

[penbeast0]

Long as you are at it, Rashard Lewis and Sean Elliot should be SFs too, possibly Majerle too though he really was a swingman. Vern Maxwell in his prime was a SG, not a PG; the PG on those Houston teams was Kenny Smith.

[aikgtd]

I think Penny Hardaway was Jordan's toughest competition. Kobe's toughest would be probably T-Mac or Wade when they are healthy. I think Jordan is the better player but as far as who has the toughest competition, I actually think its pretty dang close. Its really up in the air.

[risktaker91]

Kobe, no question.

[A.J.]

KOBE

[Magz50]

Jordan.

[TrueLAfan]

Second that about Clyde and T-Mac. If T-Mac sustained his highest level of play for, say, six seasons, it would be a different story. He didn't. Clyde did.

Don't mean to be rude but...if you "know nothing about him [Moncrief] and never saw him play so I won't make any judgements there," I'm probably going to take your comments about 80s players with a grain of salt. In Jordan's first two seasons, Purvis Short averaged 27 points, 5.5 rebounds and 3.3 assists. Dale Ellis had a four year run of 25.6-4.6-2.4 (and shot over 50% from the field and 40% from three). I like Jason Richardson and all...but if he has the same career as Dale Ellis, he'll be a lucky man. (Has he had a single year where he was as good as those guys were for six or seven years?) And I mean, do you really want to compare Jalen Rose or Corey Maggette to Dale Ellis? Seriously? Jalen Rose is a lesser Reggie Theus...and both had the same personality/chemistry disorder. Corey Maggette--besides being a SF--has no handles and has the basketball IQ of a rock. (And I'm a Clipper fan!) Dale Ellis had his flaws and all, but for more than a few years, he was a great player.

As for Alex English...in 1985 and 1986 (Jordan's first two years), Issel and Wayne Cooper were PF/C (with Schayes filling in). Fat Lever is the point. That leaves you with Alex English and Calvin Natt. Natt played the low post and got rebounds; he was bulkier and defended SFs. He was the SF; English was the SG. It's not just about height...it's the way the team played. T.R. Dunn played a lot at SF too... as much there as at SG. English was a swing player throughout his career; in Jordan's first years in the league, he played at SG.

You're off about Penny too. He was a PG. (What, you think Nick Anderson or Dennis Scott was playing at the one? Guarding SGs?) We're talking about the competition Kobe and Jordan faced at their position--not who is elite. There are very few elite players at a position at a single time (that's why they're elite). Not all of the players I listed are great--but they're all at least good to very good ones. That's the competition at the position. A few elite players, a bunch of lesser but still good players.

[penbeast0]

I remember those teams well having always been a huge Doug Moe fan. In 85, Issell was pretty much toast. He started only 9 games, averaged only 20 minutes and 13 points and his defense was bad even by Nugget standards. The starters were Cooper, Natt at PF, English at SF, Dunn at SG, and Lever at PG with G-F Bill Hanslick being the other top reserve. If anything, English played more PF than SG in his career as Moe liked to go small, Natt had knee issues, and Kiki Vandeweghe (the nominal next PF) was even more of a SF than English though bigger.

86 was roughly the same rotation with Schayes taking Issel's place and again, the 8-9 guys being both combo guards (Mike Evans and Elston Turner)

It is true that the 6-4 TR Dunn, like many another great defender, often played defensively against the more dangerous wing man leaving English on the SG but in that lineup Dunn was the guard; he shifted to SF when they had two others of the Lever/Evans/Turner trio in.

[Warspite]

IMHO

When looking at who they faced one has to include the shotblockers because MJ was raely gaurded by his man (He would break his ankles or go right by him 25ft from the basket) The hardest part of scoring in MJs era was scoring over the weakside help.

Its also my opinion (I acknowledge its a minority opinion much like the opinion the Earth revolved around the sun or that the world was round) that with todays rule changes the SG/SF is given a 15-25% inflation of ppg. A 20ppg SG today is = to a 15ppg SG of pre 1996.

Not only do todays players play at a slower pace, fewer mins and lower FG% but they face less talented shotblockers and play with fewer low post teammates. This allows wing players to dominate the ball and change the way the game is played.

MJs era was the era of the SF and PG with several great Cs. Mj might not have faced better SGs but faced SFs, PGs, Cs and teams that are far superior to ones playing today.

[penbeast0]

Assuming that's a pre pace adjustment bonus for wing players? If so, the slower pace lowers that element . . . and you have to make partial adjustments all the way back to the introduction of the 3 point line which fundamentally changed the game putting a much greater emphasis on speed/driving ability and a lesser one on post scoring/midrange jump shooting with that change increasing over time as three point shooting became more common.