Rondo's "behind-the-back fake pass" season average

SaintofKillers · Post #1 » by **SaintofKillers** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 1:46 am

When I was watching the first game against Dallas, I was thinking 2.2 per game, but it might be higher or lower.

toecutter · Post #2 » by **toecutter** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 1:59 am

Ah yes, it may well be "higher or lower." Or possibly even exactly 2.2 as you mentioned. Wouldn't that be a heck of a thing?

But we shouldn't worry our pretty little heads, since no one gives a ****.

dwestside · Post #3 » by **dwestside** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 2:01 am

I'd be curious to know how many he makes. It's gotta be like 25%.

MaxwellSmart · Post #4 » by **MaxwellSmart** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 2:39 am

Well,he tried one last night--got fouled during the move---and the idiot ref called a palming violation!

Datruth345 · Post #5 » by **Datruth345** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 2:46 am

the one on rasheed was the best

made him look foolish

i love when he does the move, is like his signature

and i can guarantee you its less than once a game, he has done it probably about 10-15 times this season

Post #6 » by **sully00** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 2:14 am

His average on national TV is terrible that is for sure. I think it was pretty automatic early on because everyone bit on it now I think that guys realize that while he is still likely to dish he rarely dishes behind his back so there is little to reason to bite on that fake.

The thing that is nice about the move is that it isn't a travel and he has conditioned refs to expect the flash and not call the violation. He also has a terrible time with offensive foul calls so it can keep defenders moving though he really needs to develop some kind of pull up game.

Datruth345 · Post #7 » by **Datruth345** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 2:55 am

the one on david west was almost as good as the rasheed one

DJToLarry · Post #8 » by **DJToLarry** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 1:59 pm

I prefer that move to when he tries to put an extreme amount of english on his layups. When he combines them, I just look see where Perk And KG are positioned for the rebound.

BillessuR6 · Post #9 » by **BillessuR6** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 2:17 pm

I actually like it. That is his trademark move!

Yes, he needs to finish them more effectively but he isn`t a very good at finishing at the rim, so it is not like he is bringing his % down just because of this move. When he gets better at finishing alltogether he will also make more of these behind-the-back fake pass layups.

Cross · Post #10 » by **Cross** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 2:30 pm

It's all eye candy. I don't particularly mind as long as he keeps a handle on the ball.

If the worst we can come up with is a behind the back fake he's done 20 times this year, he's probably having a decent second season.

He looks better than your boy Kidd, Saint, that's for sure...

wigglestrue · Post #11 » by **wigglestrue** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 4:06 pm

Cross wrote:It's all eye candy. I don't particularly mind as long as he keeps a handle on the ball.

If the worst we can come up with is a behind the back fake he's done 20 times this year, he's probably having a decent second season.

He looks better than your boy Kidd, Saint, that's for sure...

How is it "eye candy" and not simply a fake like every other NBA fake?

wigglestrue · Post #12 » by **wigglestrue** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 4:21 pm

sully00 wrote:His average on national TV is terrible that is for sure. I think it was pretty automatic early on because everyone bit on it now I think that guys realize that while he is still likely to dish he rarely dishes behind his back so there is little to reason to bite on that fake.

The thing that is nice about the move is that it isn't a travel and he has conditioned refs to expect the flash and not call the violation. He also has a terrible time with offensive foul calls so it can keep defenders moving though he really needs to develop some kind of pull up game.

It's not just a behind-the-back pass fake. It can also be a reverse-layup fake depending on the angle (Hakeem used it like that). I think the one on West was totally a layup fake, not at all a pass fake. As far as a pullup game, that's pretty much what his floater serves as, and as long as the floater is accurate (which it has been) and as long as he's not barging into people when he lets it go, it won't really matter whether he can pull off a typical pull up jumper consistently. Given his rebounding prowess, I'd rather have his momentum going toward the basket for better position anyway.

Cross · Post #13 » by **Cross** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 4:29 pm

Yes, it's a fake, but in making it exceptionally flashy, especially when he rarely goes behind the back on actual passes, it's eye candy. I'm fine with it, I enjoy when he does it.

My greater point is that if we're discussing the success % based off of him doing fake behind the back passes as one of his weaknesses, he must be doing a good job, otherwise people would be concerned with more fundamental issues than something he does 20 times a year.

wigglestrue · Post #14 » by **wigglestrue** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 5:36 pm

Cross wrote:Yes, it's a fake, but in making it exceptionally flashy, especially when he rarely goes behind the back on actual passes, it's eye candy. I'm fine with it, I enjoy when he does it.

Flashy? Like, in a flashy-for-flashy's-sake way? I would totally disagree. It's exceptional in other ways, e.g., a point guard palming the ball with such control, the fact that few players today at any position execute that fake on a consistent basis, let alone as vehemently...but it's not mere "eye candy". And again, he's not using it exclusively to fake a behind the back pass. He also uses it as a reverse layup upfake. Check the West one for a prime example.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVed789wJFA

(15 seconds in)

My greater point is that if we're discussing the success % based off of him doing fake behind the back passes as one of his weaknesses, he must be doing a good job, otherwise people would be concerned with more fundamental issues than something he does 20 times a year.

How could it possibly be a weakness? It's been either very effective or neutral. The defender either bites hard and looks foolish and gives Rondo an easy look, or the defender doesn't bite and Rondo retreats. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't remember him turning the ball over or losing control of himself or getting rejected even once while attempting that fake.

But I see your greater point, and you're right about that.

wigglestrue · Post #15 » by **wigglestrue** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 6:15 pm

The Sheed one from December was a layup fake (7 seconds in):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G71KvscInr0
Another example of the layup (not pass) fake, courtesy Sam:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I37j3YHAvLw

Here's a genuine behind the back pass fake from Rondo:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cym1qCvNbeM
Another one (8 seconds in, SICK):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loAb9UzfsDI

Even if the layup fake + spin doesn't fake a guy out of his shoes, it almost always gives a defender a tiny "WTF" pause, freezing him for an instant. You'd have to really lean on the move a lot in the same way and in the same situations for guys to be able to start predicting/defending it adequately. But -- probably because it's hard to control and requires elite reflexes -- there aren't that many players who have used or could use that fake frequently. Hakeem and...?

Datruth345 · Post #16 » by **Datruth345** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 7:14 pm

i can only recall it not working twice

once the defender didn't bite and he was forced to pass out, no harm there

and the second one was against Dallas when they calling carrying, but looked as if Rondo may have been fouled

i agree its more of a layup fake than a behind the back fake, as you can see the difference between those and the Anthony Carter one

good work getting the actual clips wiggles

Cross · Post #17 » by **Cross** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 7:21 pm

Wow, easy killer. Don't take a neutral statement to be me trying to rip on Rondo...that's the last thing I'm going for.

The only reason I lumped it as a "weakness" is because multiple posters complained about his % rate on it. It was for the sake of argument, not because I necessarily believe it's true, because I think the fact that people are worried about a % of a play that happens very rarely is a little over the top.

Also, I think you're assuming that when I'm saying it's flashy that it must meant it's a bad thing. There's nothing wrong with flashy. Magic was flashy...sometimes for the sake of looking awesome...and you know what? People loved it and refer to him as one of the best point guards ever. You think Jordan didn't go above and beyond in order to make things look awesome? Dr. J maybe? How about Nique? They were all showboaters and it made the games they played in better. When you see someone throw down a tomahawk from the elbow, it's flashy...and it's awesome. If you're good enough to pull it off, people love it. Rondo happens to be good enough to pull off that particular move, so why not use it? It's another weapon in his arsenal.

To expand, if you think for 2 seconds he doesn't like to showboat, given the opportunity, just like any other NBA player, look at that 360 dunk on the last road trip. He did that just to be awesome, and when he nailed it, he was awesome. But was the 360 necessary? No. Did you jump out of your seat? Probably...I know I did.

wigglestrue · Post #18 » by **wigglestrue** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 7:41 pm

You'll notice this "killer" agreed with your greater point, btw. But...

Was the Dream Shake "flashy" in the same way, was Hakeem "showboating" by using those fakes? I don't think so, I think he felt they were necessary and warranted each time. Was Bird showboating or being unnecessarily flashy when he made no look passes or touch passes? No, I don't think so. Did he enjoy showing off for the hell of it at times? Sure, of course, but I don't think a given play is excessively flashy just because it's unusual and requires a lot of cleverness. Sometimes it's just the player playing a step above, capitalizing on a superior skill set. Like with Rondo and these fakes.

Mahoney_jr · Post #19 » by **Mahoney_jr** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 7:47 pm

I love Rondo's game. He has amazing ballhandling abilites due to his long arms and huge hands and should showboat when appropriate. We have an uncut diamond at our hands, who needs a better shot (ft, fg, 3pt) but not to stop his signature layup tricks :)

celticfan42487 · Post #20 » by **celticfan42487** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 8:34 pm

I can only recall it beign blocked once, Rondo was in the air as he does it so it's hard to adjust if the defender actually plans for it.

I can't remeber who realized it was coming though. Either way he didn't move out of the way as Rondo did it and easiely blocked Rondo clean beacause Rondo was already in the air so close to the basket all he could do is try and shoot... I'm eagerd to see if the defenders adjust to it in the playoffs. They should Rondo's a questionable finisher as it is so if he doesn't do it they should just take their chance beign in postion for the possible rebound.