Bogut on Marvin

[betta1]

Nothing big, but I was listening to local sports talk radio in Miami today and they were interviewing Andrew Bogut before the Heat-Bucks game. The format was like 10 questions type deal. Anyway, when asked which NBA player he thought could go a lot further with his talent he said Marvin Williams. He said he could easily be an All-Star some day if he works at it.

I know it's nothing most of don't know but it was interesting to hear it from another player's perspective. I'll see if I can find the transcript of that part of the interview if anyone wants to read it.

[Skyhawk1]

I like Bogut's game. He's talented. Could play better D, but for some reason nothing seems to click well for the Bucks. Anyway, Marvin has to play better. I'd like to see him coming off the bench. That could be a wake up call for him. He's struggled big time lately. I know sometimes your shot's not falling, but his whole game has been a mess. Horrible D. He's got to grow as a player. I think from what we saw in the beginning of the season, he can be a good player, or a very good one, but he's got a lot of work to do on his game.

[Hawks]

I have pretty much given up on Marvin. I am willing to go with having Smoove play SF full time now. One of them is likely going to have to be move anyways. Considering how important Smoove is on and off the court. I am in favor of keeping him and shipping Marvin off for a 1st round pick in this year draft or try to land that Center we need.

[Harry10]

i didn't before.... but i like Bogut now.

[atlsun]

I think actions speak louder than words, in the closing minutes of that magic game marvin was on the bench while chill was playing and marvin is (on most occasions) is the first one subbed out.

Marvin has been nothing but disappointing thus far in his career. His ppg
has dipped below 15 and that is just disappointing, especially when you consider that rudy gay is putting up 19.7ppg and is shooting it 45% from the field and 35% from the 3.

[Harry10]

^ i do see Marvin's talent, but i do get annoyed when i see him not get dirty like Chil likes to do.

[Rip2137]

People keep on comparing guys on other teams that are the first scoring option to guys on our team that are not in the same flow of an offense.

I hope that Marc Ivaroni(sp?) gets fired and the Hawks hire him so you guys would see how MAGICALLY guys like marvin, and Acie would play better with a coach that plays to the teams strengths and not to their own plan.

That said, yes, Marvin could be doing better. But the thing is, he is either a jumpshooter off screens or a occasional drive man now. Earlier in the year, they were ISO'ing Marvin on the Wings alot when he was being coverd by PF's, and he was getting to the line at will. They simply went away from that a long time ago and once his jump stopped falling, it just got plain ugly. If you feature him, get him alot of shots like he is a superstar, he will give you results. Only the Hawks don't have the time to try and get superstar results out of him right now while trying to make the playoffs.

I think Marvins development is just fine honestly.

[mr_grabb]

Wow.... that's just crazy.

Not so long ago, everyone on this board seemed to be so incredibly high on Marvin. Right now it looks like no one can make a positive comment on his game.

I know his numbers have been down since we acquired Bibby, but gees... How can some of you go from almost worshiping Marv to now want to ship him away?

Don't get me wrong, if the right deal goes by I wouldn't mind trading him, since I'd rather start Childress than Marv, but the kid is only 21 and his game has still lots of room to grow.

[conleyorbust]

Wow.... that's just crazy.

Not so long ago, everyone on this board seemed to be so incredibly high on Marvin. Right now it looks like no one can make a positive comment on his game.

I know his numbers have been down since we acquired Bibby, but gees... How can some of you go from almost worshiping Marv to now want to ship him away?

Don't get me wrong, if the right deal goes by I wouldn't mind trading him, since I'd rather start Childress than Marv, but the kid is only 21 and his game has still lots of room to grow.

That isn't really the way most people are looking at him. I think we all just expected more out of him. Obviously he was gonna take a minute to develop, but you don't expect it to be this slow - he was the number 2 in a decent draft.

The other thing is that he is just so maddeningly inconsistent. If his jumper was falling than he'd be a perfect fit for the team, the thing is though, he doesn't always know how to bring it when his shot isn't falling. He should be a lockdown defender but he just seems lost out there, he gets shaken so easily.

Beyond that, Smith was taken as an ultra-raw prospect at 17 and has progressed a lot quicker and Big Al is the same age as Marv and taken around the same place in the draft (albeit with less hype around him) and he is a ROY candidate.

He's come along slowly and its unfortunate because we could really use the player that he should be.

[Rip2137]

I have a question...I notice alot of Bogut love around here. Not just this thread, but a few others.

I don't get it. You all do realize that he isn't really that good and Horford is a better Center than him right now, right?

[Rip2137]

And just to clarify when I say "that good" i mean "THAT" good that people should be considering him a guy we should give up anything major to acquire. He is a slightly above average Center right now that is pretty freakin bad defensively (although he has decided to actually challenge a shot this year instead of trying to take charges all the time).

Honestly, I don't see Bogut as all that more ahead of the curve as Marvin. Marvin is a 6'9" jumpshooting SF and the 3rd scoring option on a low pace team. Bogut is a 7 foot 2nd scoring option on a team that runs its offense through him almost every play and he is older than Marvin.

I don't see how his 13 and 9 this year is so much ahead of the curve than Marvin's year, although marvin is fading in the end and Bogut is getting better as the year goes on.

[tontoz]

I have a question...I notice alot of Bogut love around here. Not just this thread, but a few others.

I don't get it. You all do realize that he isn't really that good and Horford is a better Center than him right now, right?

Bogut is averaging 20/10 against us shooting 61%.

Horford is averaging 8.7/7 against the Bucks shooting 54%.


On the season Bogut averages 3.8 ppg more and almost twice as many blocks.

[Rip2137]

Bogut has been playing 3 years, plus his years in college, and the offense is ran through him at the high post.

Horford is a rookie, is averaging more rebounds, takes about 4 fewer shots than Bogut, plays fewer minutes and is roughly twice the defender despite the shot blocking numbers.

Sergio Rodriguez is averaging 10 points , 5 assit per game and shooting 66 percent against us and 50 percent from 3 and 0 turnovers. That doesn't exactly mean anything when he has played like crap the rest of the time. I am not sure what that stat is supposed to mean.

[conleyorbust]

Rip, I don't see too many people here arguing that we should give anything up for Bogut at all. Now I don't know if Horford is better than him this season, Al is definitely the better rebounder but as things stand that's probably about it... Bogut's defense has steadily improved as he's been in the league, he'll never be a star but since Al is only a rook and has some filling out to do I'd say they are on the same level on that side of the ball.

The point is though, Bogut is a decent center who is decent in most areas and excels in one (passing) and Marv is an average to below average swing man. The skilled center is more of a rarity in this day and age.

Beyond that, Bogut was expected to come in and contribute and round out to a decent center where as Marv was expected to evolve into a superstar. I don't see how you can take offense to the fact that people are disappointed with where Marv stands right now.

I'm not really a Bogut fan by the way, I wouldn't really want to give up Joe, Al, or Smith for him.

[tontoz]

Bogut has been playing 3 years, plus his years in college, and the offense is ran through him at the high post.

Horford is a rookie, is averaging more rebounds, takes about 4 fewer shots than Bogut, plays fewer minutes and is roughly twice the defender despite the shot blocking numbers.

Here is your quote.

Horford is a better Center than him right now, right?

You are saying Horford is better RIGHT NOW so it doesn't matter that he is a rookie.

If Horford is twice the defender that Bogut is then why is Bogut clowning Horford every time they face each other? Why can't Horford score against Bogut if he is so bad defensively?

Bogut plays only 3 more minutes per game which is hardly significant.

[Rip2137]

A: You are completely ingnoring the fact that Bogut played roughly 10 minutes more per game when Milwalkee and Atlanta have played this year. The first two meetings this year, Al Horford was shooting great (4-5 one game and 6-10 the next) but in both games Woody sat him down stupidly and put Smith on Bogut so that he could play small. I wouldn't say 10-15 in the first two games would say he had any trouble scoring the ball on Bogut. Al was in foul trouble the third game.

B: that is just plain lame anyway. I could just as easily say look at how Zydrunas Ilgauskas is averaging 20-10 against Bogut and only 9-7 against Al as some proof positive of the defense presense of each player. But that doesn't take into account minutes, who was playing that night, why and such. It is a cheap way to try to prove a point that I could also use, but I am not going to because it isn't accurate in anyway. Just watching them play, Al is a better on the ball defender, and actually rotates and plays the pick and roll, while Bogut will give you some weakside shotblocking, but on the ball is downright horrible and basically never steps out on the pick and roll at all.

Defensively, he has made strides. But he has gone for incredibly bad to bad. Right now, Horford is a good/above average post defender. Bogut...not so much.

Yes he is the better defender.

Offensively, Bogut gets the ball and the offense is run through him nearly everytime down the court. He is averaging 14 points a game. Al is the 4th/5th option on the court at most times and is averging 10. both are shooting right at the same percentage only Bogut takes more shots(with his more touches).

The difference defensively between the two right now is a pretty big gap. the difference offensively is pretty small. So yes, all in all, RIGHT NOW, Horford is better at the Center position than Bogut. For all the move Horford to the PF position talk, I think its Milwalkee that should move Bogut from the pivot and he would be a better player(although he would still struggle defensively).

And conley, while Bogut is a great passer for a big man, it is also a flaw of his too. he is so confident in his passing he makes those same passing attempts that get Josh Smith in trouble only his are usually passing out and lead to breaks.

Once again, Bogut is a pretty good center in the league. I don't think he is as good as Horford is right now though, and I definately think its odd that people are willing to praise Bogut for his progress but say Marvin is progressing too slow when they are basically putting up the same numbers repspectively if you take their position into account(Bogut should average more blocks and rebounds and have a higher FG percentage, Marvin should average more points and steals at this point).

[Rip2137]

And Conley, that is a little revisionist to say Bogut was supposed to just be a decent Center. They were talking about his abilty to pass and his back to the basket game as being a cornerstone to the Bucks franchise. They did not take him number one overall(and he was pretty much the consensus pick to take number one that year...either him or Marvin) because he would be a "decent" center. That is what he is rounding out to be now, but lets not pretend that it was the case on draft night. Thats like the people pretending that New Orleans or Utah wouldn't have taken Marvin Williams if they had the 2nd pick.

[tontoz]

Once again Rip shows a complete lack of undersanding about basketball.

the Bucks have NEVER run their offense consistently through Bogut. Any Bucks fan will tell you that Bogut has struggled to get touches because their guards dominate the ball. it has been that way since his rookie year.

Bogut has scored over twice as many points as Horford when they have matched up. That is total ownage. He averages only 13.6 against the rest of the NBA but averages 20 against us.

The reason Horford gets in foul trouble a lot is that he struggles to guard bigger players. it has been a problem all season.

[conleyorbust]

And Conley, that is a little revisionist to say Bogut was supposed to just be a decent Center. They were talking about his abilty to pass and his back to the basket game as being a cornerstone to the Bucks franchise. They did not take him number one overall(and he was pretty much the consensus pick to take number one that year...either him or Marvin) because he would be a "decent" center. That is what he is rounding out to be now, but lets not pretend that it was the case on draft night. Thats like the people pretending that New Orleans or Utah wouldn't have taken Marvin Williams if they had the 2nd pick.

Wrong, go to any draft website. The NBA comparisons were Vlade Divac with a little of Brad Miller's high post game. The point was that Bogut was the "safest" pick in the draft because a productive offensive center is very valuable.

This isn't about who would have picked Marvin and where they would have picked him. This thread has nothing to do with who we didn't pick. This thread is about where we thought Marv would be today compared to where he is. There is very little doubt in my mind that Bogut adds more to his team than Marv.

On Bogut vs Al. Bogut is more productive at this point in his career. Al certainly has potential to be better down the road, he is more athletic, tougher, and a better shooter. The problem is that Al isn't aggressive enough... he should be making a living at the line by facing up slow players like Bogut.

Bogut is probably around the same as Al on defense, which is to say average-ish for a center. Al's problems on D (and there aren't a lot) don't come from a size/strength problem in my opinion. People forget that he is still a rookie and most rookies are terrible on defense (if I'm not mistaken, Durant was the Big 12 D player of the year and he is probably a bigger mark than Zaza on D in the NBA), the fact that Al isn't terrible as he learns how to adjust to NBA speed is impressive in itself.

[stellation]

Defensively, he has made strides. But he has gone for incredibly bad to bad.

Bogut has gone from being a poor HELP defender to being an above average one this season, that is reflected in the increase in blocked shots. He was always an average post defender and has also stepped up in that regard to be an above average guy there too. Help D and shot blocking was his problem, he has addressed that this season- if you think he is only "bad" at it keep in mind that his 1.75 per game is top 10 in the league so you might be setting your goals unattainably high.

Bogut's 13/9 is actually 13.7/9.6, minor difference but if you are going to point out that Horford grabs more boards than him with 9.8 then we may as well split hairs on it