OT: Has anything like this ever happened before?

El Duderino · Post #1 » by **El Duderino** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 9:57 am

Everyone already knows that the West is better than the East, but i was looking at the standings and what's going on is insane.

With Dirk going down for a few weeks and Jason Kidd stinking up the joint, i really think they are going to miss the playoffs. I thought at the time Dallas overpaid pretty badly for an old Jason Kidd and he wasn't a great fit for that roster, but they are 44-26.

Then in the East, Atlanta very well could make the playoffs and they sit right now at a miserable 30-39. Dallas likely would be looking at being the 3rd or 4th seed in the East and yet, i really think they'll end up watching the playoffs while teams like Washington and a near 10 games under .500 Atlanta team are playing in the playoffs.

Does anyone here ever remember seeing something like this in the NBA? A team 14 games above another missing the playoffs while the other team plays in them?

I can't imagine how frustrated i'd be if i was a fan of Dallas, Golden St, or Portland, knowing only one playoff berth is there between the three of them while garbage will get in from the East.

bayrdbandit · Post #2 » by **bayrdbandit** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 10:39 am

i'm not usually one for change, but any system that can allow this to happen needs some sort of overhaul.

Post #3 » by **paulpressey25** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 12:33 pm

Not to go off topic totally, but what you bring up about Dallas can have its own thread down the road.....namely that they are a team that might get blown up in the offseason and be a trading partner for Michael Redd. I wouldn't have thought that a month ago.

It also highlights how a guy that some on this board wanted to trade for in Kidd (I was in that boat) is possibly not quite as effective as thought. Sort of a 2003 Gary Payton scenario where the guy doesn't look old and his "stats" are still damn good......but put him on a team where he's got to carry the load and he can't do it anymore.

LISTEN2JAZZ · Post #4 » by **LISTEN2JAZZ** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 12:51 pm

There are a lot of things that I would like to change about the NBA if money weren't an issue, and here is one of them: You should need a .500 record to make the playoffs, and if there aren't enough teams in your conference, the higher seeds just get a bye.

That's not fair to owners who rely on playoff revenues to break even though, so I know it can't change.

DH34Phan · Post #5 » by **DH34Phan** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 1:07 pm

paulpressey25 wrote:It also highlights how a guy that some on this board wanted to trade for in Kidd (I was in that boat) is possibly not quite as effective as thought. Sort of a 2003 Gary Payton scenario where the guy doesn't look old and his "stats" are still damn good......but put him on a team where he's got to carry the load and he can't do it anymore.

I wanted nothing to do with Kidd.

I knew from the time the trade was made Mark Cuban would be regretting it.

They are 0-8 against teams with .500 or better records after the trade...that is crazy bad.

I want to hear Europa defend Kidd now....

LUKE23 · Post #6 » by **LUKE23** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 1:25 pm

Kidd has looked old and slow in Dallas, he's nearing the end of his career. NJ really got the better of them in that deal. Harris and two firsts? They have four first rounders to add to Harris/VC/RJ the next two years. They will be able to rebuild quickly.

Post #7 » by **MickeyDavis** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 1:26 pm

Cuban isn't one to air his feelings behind closed doors. It will be interesting to see his reaction if Dallas is a lottery team while 5 or 6 teams with worse records make the playoffs in the east.

WRau1 · Post #8 » by **WRau1** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 1:28 pm

Teams in the west that are over .500 and just miss the playoffs are going to continue to get good draft picks while the bad teams in the east that make the playoffs at 5-10 games under .500 are going to continue to be worse. Something has the change.

Bucks_Revenge · Post #9 » by **Bucks_Revenge** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 1:35 pm

Thats just the way it is...you cannot change the system then that would defeat the purpose of east and west and then they have to change the Allstar game format....this is how it is this season the media and fans are just going to have to get over it.

paul · Post #10 » by **paul** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 1:48 pm

DH34Phan wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

I wanted nothing to do with Kidd.

I knew from the time the trade was made Mark Cuban would be regretting it.

They are 0-8 against teams with .500 or better records after the trade...that is crazy bad.

I want to hear Europa defend Kidd now....

Wow you must be Nostredamus and know much more about basketball than Mark Cuban, all hail the king. I wanted Kidd then and would still gleefully take him now. If you don't think Kidd could be doing a better job running our team than Mo is right now you and I have VASTLY different views on team basketball.

Kablooie · Post #11 » by **Kablooie** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 2:41 pm

paul wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

Wow you must be Nostredamus and know much more about basketball than Mark Cuban, all hail the king. I wanted Kidd then and would still gleefully take him now. If you don't think Kidd could be doing a better job running our team than Mo is right now you and I have VASTLY different views on team basketball.

If we had Kidd instead of Mo we'd never score more than 80 points a game. He'd have to do the most amazing job of creating shots for other people (and that's tough when you can't even keep your own defender honest), because Mo and Redd are the only two players on this team capable of creating their own decent shot.

As fr the playoff system, I don't think it's a big deal. West teams have a habit of losing to east teams with much worse records in the finals, anyway.

jerrod · Post #12 » by **jerrod** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 2:44 pm

paul wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

Wow you must be Nostredamus and know much more about basketball than Mark Cuban, all hail the king. I wanted Kidd then and would still gleefully take him now. If you don't think Kidd could be doing a better job running our team than Mo is right now you and I have VASTLY different views on team basketball.

there were at least a few of us on here with similar concerns, kidd is my favorite player of all time, but this is pretty much what i figured would happen. he's still a pretty good point guard, but that's not what you're hoping for when you trade for jason kidd

TheGhostDog · Post #13 » by **TheGhostDog** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 3:55 pm

Any sports league will go through cycles with some conference or league dominating for several years, so that doesn't particularly bother me at all. I doubt you could regulate against it.

If the NBA's playoff inequity seems so blatant and distasteful this year I think it's more a reflection of the ridiculous concept of having more than half the league qualify for the playoffs. It defies logic - only the best teams should make the playoffs, yet by definition when you let in more than half the league (53%) you are glorifying mediocre and sometimes losing teams. If you cut down the number of playoff teams to just 6 per conference, or 40% of the league, you actually could field enough winning teams to fill the eastern bracket, which sounds a lot more palatable to me. Do I think sleazoid David Stern will pass up potential broadcast and ticket revenues to implement this logical solution? Of course not.

paul · Post #14 » by **paul** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 4:03 pm

jerrod wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

there were at least a few of us on here with similar concerns, kidd is my favorite player of all time, but this is pretty much what i figured would happen. he's still a pretty good point guard, but that's not what you're hoping for when you trade for jason kidd

Yep, but the others who had the similar concerns didn't come out with such a blatant MBBOT esque 'I told you so' as the poster I was replying to

As far as Kidd goes I don't think he's done just yet, although Dirk going down has hurt him. IF they make the playoffs he can still do some damage, but that is an IF now. It is VERY dangerous to write off a champion athlete.

Limca · Post #15 » by **Limca** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 4:20 pm

[quote="paul"]-= original quote snipped =-

Yep, but the others who had the similar concerns didn't come out with such a blatant MBBOT esque 'I told you so' as the poster I was replying to

As far as Kidd goes I don't think he's done just yet, although Dirk going down has hurt him. IF they make the playoffs he can still do some damage, but that is an IF now. It is VERY dangerous to write off a champion athlete.[/quote]

Did I miss something? When did Jason Kidd win a championship?

Giving up as much as Dallas did for a player Kidd's age is always going to be a dangerous proposition. It definitely was a panic move by Cuban. Cuban got scared when he saw the Lakers get Gasol and Phoenix get Shaq.

http://www.last.fm/user/DPF55 · Post #16 » by **Buck You** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 5:07 pm

The other thing about the Kidd trade is that with Shaq and the Spurs getting older, the Mavericks could have kept their core together and be contenders for awhile. The Spurs aren't going to reign forever and this is probably the only year for the Suns. They would have only had to compete with the Lakers, Hornets, Blazers and they would have been fine. But this is what happens when you lose patience.

paul · Post #17 » by **paul** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 5:09 pm

Limca wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

Did I miss something? When did Jason Kidd win a championship?

Giving up as much as Dallas did for a player Kidd's age is always going to be a dangerous proposition. It definitely was a panic move by Cuban. Cuban got scared when he saw the Lakers get Gasol and Phoenix get Shaq.

uh, I didn't say he won an nba championship, I said he was a champion athlete. If you don't consider probably the finest point guard of his generation and a likely future HOF'er a champion that's ok, it was merely a turn of phrase.
Yep Cuban realised his team in it's original form wasn't going to win a title so tried something and made a big move. He gave up too much in my opinion and it may not work out but I for one wish our management would have taken a leaf out of his book.

El Duderino · Post #18 » by **El Duderino** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 9:03 pm

The reasons i didn't like the trade for Dallas were

1. They gave up way to much for an old guy like Kidd

2. While Kidd is obviously one of the best passing point guards in NBA history, he's a terrible scorer at this point in his career. I know most folks prefer a pass first PG, but not to this extreme. Teams still need their PG to be able to score points and Kidd not only shoots a terrible percentage, he struggles to score in double digits. A pass first PG is fine, but you don't want a pass only PG.

3. Devin Harris is a better defender than Kidd

DH34Phan · Post #19 » by **DH34Phan** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 10:08 pm

paul wrote:-= original quote snipped =-
As far as Kidd goes I don't think he's done just yet, although Dirk going down has hurt him. IF they make the playoffs he can still do some damage, but that is an IF now. It is VERY dangerous to write off a champion athlete.

Yep, watch out for the team that can't beat a over .500 team in the playoffs!

Dallas will be lucky to make the playoffs, even luckier to win a series.

And yes, I will say I told you so. From day 1 I was saying that Jason Kidd for Devin Harris straight up would be questionable. Add in 2 1st rounders, Diop, and the $17 million dollars in luxury tax, and this looks like one of the worst trades of all time!

DH34Phan · Post #20 » by **DH34Phan** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 10:11 pm

paul wrote:-= original quote snipped =-
Yep Cuban realised his team in it's original form wasn't going to win a title so tried something and made a big move. He gave up too much in my opinion and it may not work out but I for one wish our management would have taken a leaf out of his book.

#1, his team had gone to the Finals in 2006, and had won 67 games in 2007. I think they still had a legitimate shot at a title without making a trade.

#2, this would be like if we traded Mo Williams and 2 1sts for Sam Cassell. Would you be clamoring to make this deal?