Is RASHO a Top 10 Center Today?

[magicfan4life05]

yeah that's right, RASHO NESTEROVIC, this isnt your father's rasho, so please no ignorant comments. If you've actually watched him play recently and as of late, you'll know what I'm talking about.

He can shoot the midrange j, rebound, block, pass, and deliver when it matters most. I think what helps his game the most is the raps system.


He's averaging 13.2 points, 6.9 rbs, and 2.0 assists in march

[supertruck97]

In no special order:

Yao
Howard
Bynum
Shaq
Dalembert
Chandler
Camby
Bogut
Okafor
Biedrins
B. Miller
Kaman

That's 12 off the top of my head that are better than Rasho "Let's NBA".

I'm sure there are quite a few more that could be considered as well including:

Haywood
Curry
Boozer/Okur (Whichever they line-up at C)
Oden
Wilcox
Foster
Ilgauskas
Amare (If you consider him a C)

So, No, Rasho is NOT a top 10 center in the NBA....

[nate33]

Here's a list of centers who have played at least 1000 minutes, ranked by PER:

Code: Select all

Player        PTS  REB  AST  STL  BLK   TO eFG%  TS%  PER
stoudemire,a 27.8 10.5  1.5  0.9  2.5  2.4 .586 .649 27.1
duncan,tim   23.6 13.8  3.7  0.9  2.3  2.9 .500 .548 24.5
howard,dwigh 21.7 14.8  1.4  1.0  2.3  3.4 .598 .620 23.2
bynum,andrew 17.4 13.5  2.3  0.5  2.7  2.0 .636 .659 22.5
ming,yao     23.9 11.8  2.6  0.5  2.2  3.6 .507 .587 22.5
biedrins,and 14.0 12.9  1.4  1.0  1.7  1.6 .628 .633 18.6
ilgauskas,zy 18.2 12.7  2.0  0.6  2.3  2.5 .475 .525 18.6
haywood,bren 15.7 10.9  1.3  0.6  2.5  2.2 .532 .587 18.5
camby,marcus 10.0 14.3  3.3  1.2  4.0  1.6 .461 .501 17.9
kaman,chris  17.0 13.9  2.0  0.7  3.1  3.2 .478 .531 17.7
chandler,tys 13.5 14.4  1.3  0.6  1.3  2.1 .598 .612 17.5
wallace,rash 17.8  9.2  2.6  1.7  2.2  1.6 .501 .527 17.5
bogut,andrew 16.2 11.2  3.0  0.9  2.1  2.4 .501 .519 17.1
miller,brad  15.3 10.5  4.0  1.0  1.1  2.6 .479 .556 16.8
thomas,kurt  12.1 13.9  1.9  1.5  1.5  1.2 .504 .526 16.1
o'neal,shaqu 17.9 11.6  2.0  0.6  2.1  4.0 .592 .584 15.9
mohammed,naz 15.5 12.3  1.6  1.2  1.5  2.4 .505 .524 15.8
dalembert,sa 13.2 12.5  0.7  0.6  2.9  2.3 .505 .550 15.7
foster,jeff   9.8 13.3  2.7  1.1  0.6  1.3 .540 .559 15.6
o'neal,jerma 18.6  8.8  3.1  0.7  2.7  3.1 .443 .492 15.6
dampier,eric 10.2 12.7  1.5  0.6  2.6  2.0 .650 .648 15.4
curry,eddy   20.8  7.3  0.9  0.4  0.8  3.4 .546 .578 15.3
nesterovic,r 13.4  9.7  2.6  0.7  1.5  1.6 .536 .546 15.3
collison,nic 13.2 12.3  2.0  0.8  1.1  2.2 .506 .540 15.0
noah,joakim  12.2 11.2  2.2  1.7  1.4  2.4 .471 .524 14.9

Nesterovic ranks 23rd on the list. I'm not saying PER is everything, but it's a starting point. Explain to me why Nesterovic is better than at least 13 guys on this list ranked ahead of him (not to mention a handful of guys right behind him who also might be better, including Collison, Noah, Horford, Okur, Perkins, Pryzbilla and Bargnani).

These are pace-adjusted per-40 numbers. Every single player on this list averages more minutes per game than Nesterovic. Presumably, if given more minutes, Nesterovic's per-minute numbers would drop slightly as fatigue set in.

[5DOM]

Rasho provides more than just numbers.

Rasho defies numbers.

He NBAs like noone else

[nate33]

Rasho provides more than just numbers.

Rasho defies numbers.

He NBAs like noone else

Aah.

I stand corrected. Nevermind then.

[blkout]

I don't think so, not even for this month...

In the month of March...


Andrew Bogut
- 15.7 ppg / 11.4 rpg / 3.6 apg / 1.1 spg / 2.1 bpg

Andris Biedrins
- 7.2 ppg / 5.8 rpg / 0.5 apg / 1.1 spg / 1.2 bpg

Marcus Camby
- 9.3 ppg / 12.3 rpg / 3.3 apg / 0.6 spg / 2.9 bpg

Tyson Chandler
- 11.4 ppg / 12.1 rpg / 1.1 apg / 0.4 spg / 1.4 bpg

Samuel Dalembert
- 10.5 ppg / 11.0 rpg / 0.5 apg / 0.8 spg / 2.5 bpg

Brendan Haywood
- 10.1 ppg / 6.3 rpg / 1.3 apg / 0.4 spg / 1.8 bpg

Al Horford
- 10.7 ppg / 9.0 rpg / 0.4 apg / 0.9 spg / 1.5 bpg

Dwight Howard
- 19.2 ppg / 14.8 rpg / 0.9 apg / 1.8 spg / 3.7 bpg

Chris Kaman
- 14.3 ppg / 9.8 rpg / 1.2 apg / 0.7 spg / 1.5 bpg

Brad Miller
- 9.4 ppg / 8.9 rpg / 3.8 apg / 0.8 spg / 0.8 bpg

Shaquille O'Neal
- 12.6 ppg / 10.3 rpg / 1.8 apg / 0.3 spg / 1.2 bpg

Mehmet Okur
- 17.6 ppg / 9.9 rpg / 1.5 apg / 0.9 spg / 0.3 bpg

Rasheed Wallace
- 15.5 ppg / 5.4 rpg / 1.8 apg / 0.7 spg / 1.6 bpg

Rasho
- 13.2 ppg / 6.9 rpg / 2.0 apg / 0.5 spg / 1.0 bpg

Personally I'd rank it like this:

1 - Dwight
2 - Okur
3 - Bogut
4 - Camby
5 - Dalembert
6 - Chandler
7 - Kaman
8 - Shaq
9 - Horford
10 - Sheed
11 - Rasho
12 - Haywood
13 - Biedrins

Maybe he could sneak in if you dropped Horford two places but I think his rebounding keeps him there. Sheed is similar to Rasho statistically but is scoring more and doing more in defensive stats, so I put him above Nesterovic. I think Bogut probably should be 2nd but I don't want to look biased so he can stay third

[nate33]

It's ludicrous to say that Rasho is better than Haywood. Haywood easily beats him statistically, whether it's per game numbers or per minute numbers. And Haywood is easily the better defender.

Per game:

Code: Select all

Player        PTS  REB  AST  STL  BLK   TO eFG%  TS%  PER
haywood,bren 10.6  7.4  0.9  0.4  1.7  1.5 .532 .587 18.5
nesterovic,r  6.1  4.4  1.2  0.3  0.7  0.7 .536 .546 15.3

Pace adjused per 40:

Code: Select all

Player        PTS  REB  AST  STL  BLK   TO eFG%  TS%  PER
haywood,bren 15.7 10.9  1.3  0.6  2.5  2.2 .532 .587 18.5
nesterovic,r 13.4  9.7  2.6  0.7  1.5  1.6 .536 .546 15.3

On/off differential:

Code: Select all

Player        On/Off per 100 possessions
haywood,bren +6.2
nesterovic,r -3.1

Homers.

[blkout]

Are you referring to me? Those numbers are for March, you are quoting entire season numbers.

Edit: I should further clarify, those rankings I posted were purely for this month... not the season.

[Guy Smiley]

Anyone that can pry the starting C position from a future HOF player like Andrea "The Great" Bargnani must be at least top 10 in the league.

[nate33]

Are you referring to me? Those numbers are for March, you are quoting entire season numbers.

Edit: I should further clarify, those rankings I posted were purely for this month... not the season.

Sorry. I understood that your stats were for the month of March, but I thought your rankings were for the season. That said, I don't think Nesterovic beats Haywood even in the month of March. Those stats you posted don't account for minutes. Nesterovic averaged 31, Haywood averaged 27. To make a fair comparison, you should correct for the minute disparity. If you project Haywood's stats over 31 minutes, here's how they compare:

Brendan Haywood
- 11.7 ppg / 7.4 rpg / 1.5 apg / 0.5 spg / 2.1 bpg

Rasho
- 13.2 ppg / 6.9 rpg / 2.0 apg / 0.5 spg / 1.0 bpg

I'll take Haywood's extra 1.1 blocks and overall superiority defensively over Rasho's 1.5 additional points.

[tjfordrules]

[quote="nate33"][/quote]

If only stats said everything,Zach Randolph would be a great player.........Rasho brings something else to the table other then stats,hes been on championship teams,Hes a great defender,very smart and knows how to play his man.If were talking about rashos blocks then look in the past,Hes been a very solid shotblocker.Im prepared to say that rasho is a better defender and offensive player. Just watch him play,hes not a great athlete but he makes up for it with great IQ

[ITK9]

he is not better than (no particular order):

d12
amare
duncan
yao
kaman
shaq
dalembert
bynum
bogut
chandler
al horford
ben wallace
curry
biendris
camby
brad miller
okafor
nick colison
nazr mohamed
oden
haywood

so he can't be a top 10 if he is not even in top 20.

[Hendrix]

Here's a list of centers who have played at least 1000 minutes, ranked by PER:

Code: Select all

Player        PTS  REB  AST  STL  BLK   TO eFG%  TS%  PER
stoudemire,a 27.8 10.5  1.5  0.9  2.5  2.4 .586 .649 27.1
duncan,tim   23.6 13.8  3.7  0.9  2.3  2.9 .500 .548 24.5
howard,dwigh 21.7 14.8  1.4  1.0  2.3  3.4 .598 .620 23.2
bynum,andrew 17.4 13.5  2.3  0.5  2.7  2.0 .636 .659 22.5
ming,yao     23.9 11.8  2.6  0.5  2.2  3.6 .507 .587 22.5
biedrins,and 14.0 12.9  1.4  1.0  1.7  1.6 .628 .633 18.6
ilgauskas,zy 18.2 12.7  2.0  0.6  2.3  2.5 .475 .525 18.6
haywood,bren 15.7 10.9  1.3  0.6  2.5  2.2 .532 .587 18.5
camby,marcus 10.0 14.3  3.3  1.2  4.0  1.6 .461 .501 17.9
kaman,chris  17.0 13.9  2.0  0.7  3.1  3.2 .478 .531 17.7
chandler,tys 13.5 14.4  1.3  0.6  1.3  2.1 .598 .612 17.5
wallace,rash 17.8  9.2  2.6  1.7  2.2  1.6 .501 .527 17.5
bogut,andrew 16.2 11.2  3.0  0.9  2.1  2.4 .501 .519 17.1
miller,brad  15.3 10.5  4.0  1.0  1.1  2.6 .479 .556 16.8
thomas,kurt  12.1 13.9  1.9  1.5  1.5  1.2 .504 .526 16.1
o'neal,shaqu 17.9 11.6  2.0  0.6  2.1  4.0 .592 .584 15.9
mohammed,naz 15.5 12.3  1.6  1.2  1.5  2.4 .505 .524 15.8
dalembert,sa 13.2 12.5  0.7  0.6  2.9  2.3 .505 .550 15.7
foster,jeff   9.8 13.3  2.7  1.1  0.6  1.3 .540 .559 15.6
o'neal,jerma 18.6  8.8  3.1  0.7  2.7  3.1 .443 .492 15.6
dampier,eric 10.2 12.7  1.5  0.6  2.6  2.0 .650 .648 15.4
curry,eddy   20.8  7.3  0.9  0.4  0.8  3.4 .546 .578 15.3
nesterovic,r 13.4  9.7  2.6  0.7  1.5  1.6 .536 .546 15.3
collison,nic 13.2 12.3  2.0  0.8  1.1  2.2 .506 .540 15.0
noah,joakim  12.2 11.2  2.2  1.7  1.4  2.4 .471 .524 14.9

Nesterovic ranks 23rd on the list. I'm not saying PER is everything, but it's a starting point. Explain to me why Nesterovic is better than at least 13 guys on this list ranked ahead of him (not to mention a handful of guys right behind him who also might be better, including Collison, Noah, Horford, Okur, Perkins, Pryzbilla and Bargnani).

These are pace-adjusted per-40 numbers. Every single player on this list averages more minutes per game than Nesterovic. Presumably, if given more minutes, Nesterovic's per-minute numbers would drop slightly as fatigue set in.

I'm not saying Rasho's top 10. But I think PER's a pretty bad stat to measure what Rasho brings. Even still with PER there's only what 2.4 PER measuring the difference between him, and the top 10 centers. The PER rankings from 6th-25th using PER is a pretty small difference where I don't think you can say player x is better then player Y because he's 10 positions ahead in PER rankings.

Rasho's a very smart player, passer, and pretty easily our best defender that always makes the right decisions defensivly. Gaurds big men well, and always rotates, helps, and boxes out. Those things don't really show up in PER.

I'de say he's probably about an average center though. Somewhere in the 15-18 range, but has maybe played in the top 10 the last month.

[DaFan334]

no... not even close

[snaquille oatmeal]

I just blame Rasho for no good reason

[nate33]

-= original quote snipped =-



If only stats said everything,Zach Randolph would be a great player.........Rasho brings something else to the table other then stats,hes been on championship teams,Hes a great defender,very smart and knows how to play his man.If were talking about rashos blocks then look in the past,Hes been a very solid shotblocker.Im prepared to say that rasho is a better defender and offensive player. Just watch him play,hes not a great athlete but he makes up for it with great IQ

The fallacy in your argument is your perception that Rasho is the only player who brings intangibles other than box score production. Lots of other players do the same thing. Indeed, I'd argue that Haywood's importance is greatly underrated by the stats, more so than any of his teammates. His importance to the team is vital. He challenges a heck of a lot of more shots than he actually blocks. He improves the team's defense while dramatically lowering the team's foul rate. And he substantially improves the team's rebounding percentage when he is on the floor even though he isn't necessarily the one grabbing the board.

In general, if a player brings so many intangibles that aren't showing up in the box score, they're likely to show up in the on/off numbers. Nesterovic's on/off numbers are bad too: -3.1. Haywood is +6.2.

I'm sorry. Nesterovic is a decent player. He's a serviceable big man. Nothing more. His box score stats are mediocre, his on/off production is lousy, and Toronto is 13-16 in games when he has started. There is simply no evidence to support him being a top 10 center and there is no evidence to support that he is better than Haywood. At best, he has played one month at roughly Haywood's level.

[blkout]

Is there a particular reason Haywood plays such limited minutes? Is it fitness or just a rotational thing?

[Kosta]

The way he's playing right now I'd put him top 13-15. But guys like Haywood and Brad Miller get the nod over him.

[Kabookalu]

He has improved tremendously offensively. What's sad is that of recently, he's been a better offensive player than Bargnani and miles ahead as a defender. Top 10, probably not; it still frustrates me that he can miss easy baskets so close to the basket, though he's been making them more often. If he was a little stronger and a little faster with more stamina, he would be a top 10 center.

[LeQuitterNotMVP]

No Z love here...