Carney drawing trade interest?

[Louis Williams]

King said nothing about coming in an immediately contributing. He said they were looking for athletes and defenders. Carney is that. He may struggle offensively, but he is what the team was looking for

Jermaine O' Neal played 4 years before Indiana traded for him. In his second year, he never got off the bench either.

You made the same observations about Dalembert not having the mindset or the IQ. He's now an impact player.

Carney is cheap, young, and athletic. He's not untouchable, but he doesn't have to be shipped out on the next bus either.

If you really believe that Byars season "blows away" Carney's because he averaged 2 more assists and 3 fg% points per game, then its obvious you just dislike the guy and there's no need to continue.

[kevinbs]

King said nothing about coming in an immediately contributing. He said they were looking for athletes and defenders. Carney is that. He may struggle offensively, but he is what the team was looking for

Jermaine O' Neal played 4 years before Indiana traded for him. In his second year, he never got off the bench either.

You made the same observations about Dalembert not having the mindset or the IQ. He's now an impact player.

Carney is cheap, young, and athletic. He's not untouchable, but he doesn't have to be shipped out on the next bus either.

If you really believe that Byars season "blows away" Carney's because he averaged 2 more assists and 3 fg% points per game, then its obvious you just dislike the guy and there's no need to continue.

I agree

[dbodner]

King said nothing about coming in an immediately contributing. He said they were looking for athletes and defenders. Carney is that. He may struggle offensively, but he is what the team was looking for

And defense isn't something that's typically developed. The implication was that because of his defense and athleticism, he would be able to contribute sooner than later. I don't know how you can say that now in his second season, at age 24, he hasn't been a disappointment.

Jermaine O' Neal played 4 years before Indiana traded for him. In his second year, he never got off the bench either.

Exactly my point. You said that you can't evaluate Carney because it's too early. My point was that you have to evaluate guys and make decisions on them early. Indiana took a risk and gave up an established player for a 22 year old who had never gotten off the bench. They evaluated a young kid who wasn't playing. You can evaluate Youth, and in fact it's key. In my evaluation, Carney is not going to be an impact player.

You made the same observations about Dalembert not having the mindset or the IQ. He's now an impact player.

Samuel Dalembert is not an impact player. Not from a stats perspective, and not from an impact perspective. In fact, if you look at his rebounding rate since his 2nd year in the league, it's the exact same. And his block rate has actually decreased.

My argument, from the get-go about Dalembert has always been that he COULD be an impact player, that he could be an all-star, but he won't achieve that because of his basketball IQ. I still stand by that. He still makes the same mistakes he has his entire time here.

To make matters worth, as a wing player we need Carney to be an effective offensive player. We need him to rebound, and we need him to take shots in the context of the offense. A center can make up for other deficiencies with shot blocking. A wing player needs to be a more complete player.

If you really believe that Byars season "blows away" Carney's because he averaged 2 more assists and 3 fg% points per game, then its obvious you just dislike the guy and there's no need to continue.

I dislike Carney because he's not a good basketball player. It's not a personal agenda.

Carney's season showed exactly what's wrong with him as a player. bad shot selection, and no other significant contributions. He scored, did so inefficiently, and contributed little else. That's who Carney is now. Yes, being a more complete player while scoring the same amount but significantly more efficiently is blowing away. Neither player were great offensive players. Byars actually contributed outside of that.

And my entire point was that Carney season was not "great".

[9th Wonder]

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Detroit's only on the books for about $54m next year, well below the luxury tax threshold.

...With only nine players under contract.

[Louis Williams]

Exactly my point. You said that you can't evaluate Carney because it's too early. My point was that you have to evaluate guys and make decisions on them early. Indiana took a risk and gave up an established player for a 22 year old who had never gotten off the bench. They evaluated a young kid who wasn't playing. You can evaluate Youth, and in fact it's key. In my evaluation, Carney is not going to be an impact player.

Why do you have to make decision on them early? That's why they're on a rookie deal. You sign them for 4 years cheaply to discover if they will be contributors or not. IT'S CARNEY'S SECOND YEAR. There's no need to risk making a mistake, especially if the team is rebuilding. As far as O'Neal goes, you're looking at this entirely from Indiana's perspective. How about Portland made a mistake by giving up on O'Neal too soon?

Samuel Dalembert is not an impact player. Not from a stats perspective, and not from an impact perspective. In fact, if you look at his rebounding rate since his 2nd year in the league, it's the exact same. And his block rate has actually decreased.

My argument, from the get-go about Dalembert has always been that he COULD be an impact player, that he could be an all-star, but he won't achieve that because of his basketball IQ. I still stand by that. He still makes the same mistakes he has his entire time here.

Samuel Dalembert is not an impact player? Do you watch games? Do you see the difference in the team when he is on the floor and when he is not? Forget stats, i'm talking how our rebounding and defense suffers when he's not out there. I don't want to turn this into a Dalembert thread, but he is the exact reason why you can't make quick evaluations about young players. 20 and 20 last night? And he's not an impact player?

To make matters worth, as a wing player we need Carney to be an effective offensive player. We need him to rebound, and we need him to take shots in the context of the offense. A center can make up for other deficiencies with shot blocking. A wing player needs to be a more complete player.

Because of the lack of talent on our team, we need Carney to assume a role that he's not ready for. He probably would thrive as role player who would run the floor, knock down open 3's and defend. We need him to be more than that, but he's not there yet. If we had more talent, his weaknesses might not be as glaring.

Carney's season showed exactly what's wrong with him as a player. bad shot selection, and no other significant contributions. He scored, did so inefficiently, and contributed little else. That's who Carney is now. Yes, being a more complete player while scoring the same amount but significantly more efficiently is blowing away. Neither player were great offensive players. Byars actually contributed outside of that.

So Carney has to learn to do other things to find a niche. He won't be the first guy who had to do this. That's why you give him time to develop these skills.

Where's Byars now?

[dbodner]

Why do you have to make decision on them early? That's why they're on a rookie deal. You sign them for 4 years cheaply to discover if they will be contributors or not. IT'S CARNEY'S SECOND YEAR. There's no need to risk making a mistake, especially if the team is rebuilding. As far as O'Neal goes, you're looking at this entirely from Indiana's perspective. How about Portland made a mistake by giving up on O'Neal too soon?

This thread is talking about getting value for Carney. If you let him play out his rookie contract, you risk losing any value he has.

Both portland and indiana evaluated a 22 year old. Indiana was correct in their evaluation, Portland was wrong. That doesn't show that you can't evaluate a 24 year old (your point), but just stresses being right about your evaluation (which is the basis of all basketball moves). Obviously, you CAN evaluate someone of Carney's age. You do it in the draft, you do it for young players (aka O'Neal). You do it all the time. If you're point is that you have to be correct in your evaluation, well, duh.

Samuel Dalembert is not an impact player? Do you watch games? Do you see the difference in the team when he is on the floor and when he is not? Forget stats, i'm talking how our rebounding and defense suffers when he's not out there. I don't want to turn this into a Dalembert thread, but he is the exact reason why you can't make quick evaluations about young players. 20 and 20 last night? And he's not an impact player?

this is not Dalembert's first great game. I still remember his 24 pt, 16 rebound, 3 block gem his second year in the league. or his 20 pt, 15 rebound, 2 block game against sacramento that same year. Or his 23 pt, 14 rebound, 3 block game against phoenix. single game outbursts aren't proof of consistency, and all-star games aren't awarded on them.

Kenny Thomas had a 20/20 game with us. That doesn't make him an impact player, or irreplaceable.

Second, the difference between when Sam is on the court and when he's off the court has very much to do with who's replacing him and the lack of a viable shotblocker on this team outside of sam. That shows that sam would have to be replaced, not that he's irreplaceable. Very big difference IMO.

For every game like this sam has, he has an 8 pt, 6 rebound, 31 minute stinker. or the 6 pt, 2 rebound effort earlier in the month. And his mistakes are still incredibly frustrating, and limiting. Impact players do not make these mistakes. He's a good player, above average, but not impact. My complaints against sam from before this year are still valid, and are still his limiting factors. Do you deny this?

Because of the lack of talent on our team, we need Carney to assume a role that he's not ready for. He probably would thrive as role player who would run the floor, knock down open 3's and defend. We need him to be more than that, but he's not there yet. If we had more talent, his weaknesses might not be as glaring.

Carney has been replaced in the rotation by Thaddeus Young. Someone who doesn't have a refined jumpshot. Who can't put the ball on the floor, and who doesn't create for others because he can't create his own shot. This team doesn't need Carney to be a complete player right now. He has a role on this if he would rebound, and take shots in the context of the offense. Carney gets the ball, and he's a black hole. It's one bad shot off of a drive after another.

So Carney has to learn to do other things to find a niche. He won't be the first guy who had to do this. That's why you give him time to develop these skills.

He hasn't shown a willingness to do so yet. When Iguodala came in, as 20 year old kid with an unrefined game, he found his niche right away. Thaddeus Young has done the same thing. He's hardly a finished product, but he finds playing time by hustling and playing within himself. If Carney hasn't been able to do this at 24 years old and after 1,514 minutes played in the league, I don't have any confidence he ever will.

Where's Byars now?

exactly my point.

[CPops57]

Even if Carney ever gets it together enough to start hitting his shots at a respectable clip, is he a good enough ball-handler/rebounder to be much more than a reserve player on a good team? I may be wrong, but I don't see it in him.

I don't think they should outright cut Rodney Carney when they don't yet have to, but I do think they should consider ways to minimize their losses and try and use whatever remaining value he might have to try and dump Willie, for example.

With Thad on deck and needs elsewhere, to me the choice is pretty easy.

[IglooKing2]

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...With only nine players under contract.

If they get Carney and Green, that brings them up to 11, and still $10-11m below the probable '08 luxury tax level. If they don't want to do such a deal, it's because they don't think Green's worth it, not because of luxury tax considerations.

[Samson]

Not to fantasytradethreadandgetlockedbecausesometimesinowgetlocked, but IF Carney is drawing interest, the absolutely MOST LOGICAL AND PERFECT destination is Memphis!

He's a HERO down there.

HE LIKES IT THERE.

He could start and contribute immediately.

THEY HAVE LOTS OF YOUNG CHEAP TALENT

MEMPHIS SUCKS, They *NEED* to make atrade.


Operating under the assumption we could not get Pau Gasol, Mike Conley, and certainly not Rudy Gay (the first person I would take from that roster, obviously)

They have uberathlete and our potential PF Hakim Warrick (FROM PHILLY) and awesome guard Kyle Lowry (FROM PHILLY)

Carney and Shav for Lowry and Warrick!

[9th Wonder]

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If they get Carney and Green, that brings them up to 11, and still $10-11m below the probable '08 luxury tax level. If they don't want to do such a deal, it's because they don't think Green's worth it, not because of luxury tax considerations.

Yes, but keep in mind that McDyess is a free agent and they're also losing a good portion of their bench. Signing McDyess and two or three other players will get them up to $10M pretty quickly. Unless of course they go cheap and don't use all or part of their MLE.

Why bother making the Green/Carney deal if it will even comes close to bringing them to the tax? They lose it from the standpoint of having some financial breathing room this offseason and they also lose due to the fact that Green's contract isn't exactly desirable over the long term. I think the fact that Green's not "worth it" has a lot to do with their salary situation. I mean, isn't Willie's contract everybody's main complaint with him?

[IggyTheBEaST]

Carney and Shav for Lowry and Warrick!

would never happen. what about carney and jazz 09 1st for CV

[The Sixer Fixer]

Not to fantasytradethreadandgetlockedbecausesometimesinowgetlocked, but IF Carney is drawing interest, the absolutely MOST LOGICAL AND PERFECT destination is Memphis!

He's a HERO down there.

HE LIKES IT THERE.

He could start and contribute immediately.

THEY HAVE LOTS OF YOUNG CHEAP TALENT

MEMPHIS SUCKS, They *NEED* to make atrade.


Operating under the assumption we could not get Pau Gasol, Mike Conley, and certainly not Rudy Gay (the first person I would take from that roster, obviously)

They have uberathlete and our potential PF Hakim Warrick (FROM PHILLY) and awesome guard Kyle Lowry (FROM PHILLY)

Carney and Shav for Lowry and Warrick!

Who exactly is Carney starting over? Is it Mike Miller who's a pretty darn good player or is it Rudy Gay who is one of the most improved players in the league?

[Louis Williams]

King said nothing about coming in an immediately contributing. He said they were looking for athletes and defenders. Carney is that. He may struggle offensively, but he is what the team was looking for

And defense isn't something that's typically developed. The implication was that because of his defense and athleticism, he would be able to contribute sooner than later. I don't know how you can say that now in his second season, at age 24, he hasn't been a disappointment.

Jermaine O' Neal played 4 years before Indiana traded for him. In his second year, he never got off the bench either.

Exactly my point. You said that you can't evaluate Carney because it's too early. My point was that you have to evaluate guys and make decisions on them early. Indiana took a risk and gave up an established player for a 22 year old who had never gotten off the bench. They evaluated a young kid who wasn't playing. You can evaluate Youth, and in fact it's key. In my evaluation, Carney is not going to be an impact player.

You made the same observations about Dalembert not having the mindset or the IQ. He's now an impact player.

Samuel Dalembert is not an impact player. Not from a stats perspective, and not from an impact perspective. In fact, if you look at his rebounding rate since his 2nd year in the league, it's the exact same. And his block rate has actually decreased.

My argument, from the get-go about Dalembert has always been that he COULD be an impact player, that he could be an all-star, but he won't achieve that because of his basketball IQ. I still stand by that. He still makes the same mistakes he has his entire time here.

To make matters worth, as a wing player we need Carney to be an effective offensive player. We need him to rebound, and we need him to take shots in the context of the offense. A center can make up for other deficiencies with shot blocking. A wing player needs to be a more complete player.

If you really believe that Byars season "blows away" Carney's because he averaged 2 more assists and 3 fg% points per game, then its obvious you just dislike the guy and there's no need to continue.

I dislike Carney because he's not a good basketball player. It's not a personal agenda.

Carney's season showed exactly what's wrong with him as a player. bad shot selection, and no other significant contributions. He scored, did so inefficiently, and contributed little else. That's who Carney is now. Yes, being a more complete player while scoring the same amount but significantly more efficiently is blowing away. Neither player were great offensive players. Byars actually contributed outside of that.

And my entire point was that Carney season was not "great".

Does anyone care for some crow?

[CPops57]

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Does anyone care for some crow?

Forgive me, I'm confused.

Are you suggesting that Carney is having a great season?

[bebopdeluxe]

Louis:

Carney has certainly shown potential. He looks like he COULD be part of a team's 8-9 man rotation.

It's about time.

[tk76]

I remember a few months ago hearing Ed say that he wanted to see Carney get more minutes. I knew the message had been sent to Mo, and at the time it made me cringe- remembering early in the year when Carney had shot and missed something like 24 3's in a row...

I also used to think that maybe Carney could be a decent role player for a team more in the mold of the Suns.

Little did I know that the Sixers would all of the sudden become the type of team where Carney could be an asset... and that Carney would all of the sudden find his groove.

[Louis Williams]

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Forgive me, I'm confused.

Are you suggesting that Carney is having a great season?

No, it was a debate dbodner and I had over Carney. He said his senior season at Memphis wasn't great.

We disagreed whether or not Carney could become a decent player in the NBA.

[Mozy-76er Fan]

The main problem with Carney to date is his lack of consistency (same with Willie). Maybe that will come with time.

[P2K]

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Does anyone care for some crow?

Damn.

Unless you're the Amazing Kreskin, even to this day, people are amazed how Rodney Carney has contributed, And even with that, it;s not like he's tearing up the league.

You can't sit there and honestly tell us all that back when this thread started that based on what we all saw in games up to that point...that you saw Carney's potential.

[Sixerscan]

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No, it was a debate dbodner and I had over Carney. He said his senior season at Memphis wasn't great.

We disagreed whether or not Carney could become a decent player in the NBA.

Well his senior season at Memphis wasn't very good.

And if Stefanski really thinks Carney has proven himself based on one month of decent play (he's still shooting sub 30% from 3 on the year) that worries me.