What does this team need to get to the next level? ('Ship)

[BanndNDC]

I'm using "thug" as a catch-all term to include getting LOTS of rebounds, playing defense, and generally not taking crap off of anyone. Another way of putting it would be to say they need an increase of frontcourt toughness. Real toughness, not the faux toughness Etan has offered in the past. A guy who would quite happily put Lebron on his behind and then not offer a hand to help him up.

I don't care how he's built, and I'd obviously prefer a guy with skills. But I think the team needs more toughness upfront. They have some of that on the wings in Deshawn and Caron. Now they need it from a big.

My hope is similar to yours -- that Blatche could become that guy. Collison might be okay. Noah? Seems more whiny than tough.

dame (what does that mean anyway?), doesn't anyone use the search function (oh, right). I (along with a host of other people including you) have been saying that for years (sometimes even lucidly).

other then that problem (though we could use a distributor and a good passing true 5 but who doesnt need those things) we're actually in pretty good shape (as long as Blatche doesn't suck) now that potential Nick has replaced theoretical Jarvis as the bench scorer and Mason has stepped up as the 3pt shooter. our model isnt the traditional model (which basically relies on the number one overall pick interior superstud) but the Pistons 5 musketeers. it's a tougher road but when the only #1 we've had in almost 40 years is Kwame effin Brown there's not much else one can do.

[Ruzious]

Rule changes have made having a big inside scorer much less important than it was in Kenny Smith's day. It's good to have one - as long as he doesn't get in the way of slashers. See Shaq/Phoenix.

[Wiz99]

[quote="keynote"][/quote]

So let me be clear.

You think Arenas now is as good as Jordan in the midst of winning 6 rings?

You deny Gilbert still has a lot of room to grow in a couple key areas? (the 2 I mentioned are playing tough D, and embracing the mantle of leadership - which not coincidentally includes leading by example on both D & O).

Just checkin'...

My point was Gil gets a free pass in all this discussion about what we still need. He shouldn't. You can talk all you want about supporting cast, but if your star won't do what it takes to be a superstar, than you're probably not winning a 'chip.

[doclinkin]

If I thought that Blatche was ready to be that ideal PF/C next year, I'd be happy. But I think Blatche is still a few years away. He's just not mentally mature enough.

What Blatche needs is a hardass big man coach or role model to reach him to _be_ a Rick Mahorn or Bill Laimbeer. He's still young but you see flashes where he'll get chippy with a guy like Rashweed and foul him to force the counterfoul/tech. Once he learns to make the smart fouls, when the refs can't see them and get under he skin of his opponent, he'll start to have an effect there.

He seems like he won't mind that role, but he's just still gaining confidence out there, learning he belongs. Still the youngest guy on the team. When he has a few teammates younger than him, and on-court success with his pals in the bench mob, I think he'll take a bit more of a leadership role to gain respect.

Immaturity is an ill fit for him-- it doesn't work to use Gil and Nick Young as an example, he needs a tough guy big brother to teach him to channel his nasty, decide to take no mess. No more pranks. No more Cute. Game face mean. He needs a big man coach to teach him to use his superior intimidating size, hold him accountable, and force him to get stronger.

But his instinct as a fouling machine is a good one, shows he doesn't like getting beat. I suspect as he begins to show his offensive skillset he'll start to hear fewer silly whistles on both ends, get more of the benefit of the doubt.

I dunno though. I get the feeling Brendan Haywood could start to be that big brother type. He gets knocked for being softish, but every now and again he'll fire off a hard foul and back it up with a scowl. He's definitely changed LeBron's mind a few times about charging into the paint. Maybe it takes a guy in his corner like Randy Ayers to insist on that commitment, call attention to it. But Brendan is one of the smarter more articulate guys on the team, and will take players aside and talk to them, call out instructions on court. Early on Blatche did seem to look to him as an example.

Yes he needs back pats and accolades for bringing the nasty when it happens, but he's got a touch of that attitude in there somewhere. Even if he'll backpedal out the picture after he starts it. He just needs guys who'll back him up with it. Maybe Caron, nice guy though he is. (When the refs were letting the Blazers mug the Wiz, TJ didn't like it and started giving back a bit if his own, near tore the arm off of his man Roy).

Playoffs open the eyes of a lot of guys. Teach them how to be tough. Emotionally tough. I want our young pups to get a taste of it. I also want the addition to the roster of more winners. People who have come up large at one-and-done time and care more about wins than most anything else. This kind of attitude is contagious. Even guys like Juan Dixon and Steve Blake had that kind of effect on the team, just an attitude that you're supposed to win, fun and pranks aside. Drop an 'amazingly sucky' 35 points in a critical game because nobody else was gonna do it.

Beyond that I think we've got elements to help this team go deep. We just need maturity time and chemistry to help develop it. Add a little here and there. Our roster is only 12 deep out of 15 possible. There's room to add tweaks and wrinkles off the back end of the bench. If that's what it takes to win a a championship. And the fit is right.

[doclinkin]

So let me be clear.

You think Arenas now is as good as Jordan in the midst of winning 6 rings?

I think Arenas now can be as good as the clutch Isiah Thomas in the Bad Boys heyday. When healthy.

I think his defense can be every bit as good as Zeke's, and better, if he has a team able to hold it's own on scoring and he can dial in his effort on D. I think when he gets hot there's no one in the league who can shut him down.

When he's 100% offensively he's one of the toughest players in the league to guard. Able to drop 60 on Kobe. For instance.

And when pissed off and clicking he can hit every last second shot that lands in his hands. Tough minded in late game situations, and nobody working harder off court. Shouldn't be so easy to forget this. Quirks aside.

[Wiz99]

What does that MEAN doc?

Does Gil need to improve or not? Or are you saying winning a 'chip or not falls on everyone else's head instead?

[doclinkin]

Improve? Yes. Gil needs to improve.

But to win a trophy so does everybody on the team; with the possible exception of Jamison who has basically maxed out his talent. What I'm saying is that it's not only possible but _likely_ that all improve, to greater and lesser degree, with the sole caveat of: health.

We'll get better, the question is how much and how fast. My read is that player development-- maxing out the talent we got-- is the primary cap on how far this team can go.

And health.

And a bit of luck.

And a little improvement in the area of coaching. Just a skootch. Here and there. Same way I expect the players to learn and improve.

-- EDIT: But knockin on the door a few years in a row in the playoffs is the crucible. That's where the team learns what it needs to do to improve, where good enough ain't good enough anymore. Especially once you have no more injury excuses anymore. That's where the team gets better and learns what it needs, from the front office on down.

[BanndNDC]

I dunno though. I get the feeling Brendan Haywood could start to be that big brother type. He gets knocked for being softish, but every now and again he'll fire off a hard foul and back it up with a scowl. He's definitely changed LeBron's mind a few times about charging into the paint. Maybe it takes a guy in his corner like Randy Ayers to insist on that commitment, call attention to it. But Brendan is one of the smarter more articulate guys on the team, and will take players aside and talk to them, call out instructions on court. Early on Blatche did seem to look to him as an example.

that's a good point and reminds me of the days when the only good BTH was an angry BTH. Haywood does have that potential and strikes me as the type of guy that will have your back if he thinks you have his. The growing done by BTH and EJ this year to seemingly put their past behind them has been the single biggest improvement for the team this year.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

For all the supposed growth, EJ still only plays Brendan 28 mins a game.

A better coach would play Haywood 33-35 minutes a game ot more.

Look at the minutes Dalembert is playing with Philly during their run. About 35 per game. Look at Chandler's minutes. Over 36 since the all star break. Fragile Marcus Camby? Averages 35 mins/game.

My problem with Eddie Jordan is I think he's not that sharp and for one reason only: Haywood could help him even more if he would simply play the man more minutes.

The team's defense is SO much better and even the offense is better WITH HAYWOOD ON THE COURT.

One reason I'm not afraid of what would happen if Eddie got fired is I'm reasonably sure another coach would play Haywood more minutes.

nate, myself, and others have said this for years. With everybody noticing Haywood's improvements why on earth on this team does he play less than 33 minutes a game.

Why? Eddie Jordan doesn't see the obvious and would rather play Jamison close to 40 every night because he sees scorers as important.

[DCZards]

CCJ, you're looking at the Zards through too narrow of a lens, imo. Yes, maybe the Zards would have won 2-3 more games this year if BH averaged 35 mins. rather than 28 mins., but there's no way of knowing that for sure.

Imo, the current and future success of the Zards depends more on "continuity and chemistry," which has been the key to staying above .500 despite the loss of Agent Zero, than it does on BH's minutes.

BTW, the record will show that BH has averaged around 32 minutes a game during the months of Feb and March, an average that would probably be higher if he hadn't been in foul trouble for some of those games.

EDIT: When I say "chemistry and continuity" I don't mean to suggest that there are not some improvements that the Zards need to make. The most important improvement is a healthy GA, which would have easily meant 4-5 more wins by this point in the season.

I'd also like to see us acquire that thuggish rebounder (where is Charles Oakley when you need him?), and I'd love for the Zards to draft a PG with outstanding ballhandling and passing skills, and the ability to get to the rim or the FT line.

[Donkey McDonkerton]

Haywood might be injured if he played 35 min a game. EJ is just learning how to rest his stars!

[BanndNDC]

fire the coach now and we lose a lot of the gains that have been made (system/chemistry wise). we need more then 7 more minutes of the BTH experience. and the growth that has happened has been more then just EJ, it has also included BTH. This year's BTH is better then previous versions, he is playing with more consistent energy and effort then before. I would rather have that level of play for 28 minutes then 33 minutes in which that level is only sustained for 20 minutes. (besides which i thought all of you always complained that blatche should get more minutes, it's not as if AJ is taking BTH's minutes).

[Ruzious]

What Blatche needs is a hardass big man coach or role model to reach him to _be_ a Rick Mahorn or Bill Laimbeer. He's still young but you see flashes where he'll get chippy with a guy like Rashweed and foul him to force the counterfoul/tech. Once he learns to make the smart fouls, when the refs can't see them and get under he skin of his opponent, he'll start to have an effect there.

If he's not going to learn from Butler and Jamison, he's never going to learn. I think he will - It's just taking some time, because he's young and started out less mature than others. I've seen Butler get on Haywood's case a few times recently - when he goes up soft with a shot. Hopefully, he does the same with Blatche. But with Blatche, it's probably as much what he does off the court as on - He generally looks tired in games when he doesn't perform well. He's just got to take the game and preparation more seriously.

[doclinkin]

-= original quote snipped =-


If he's not going to learn from Butler and Jamison, he's never going to learn. I think he will - It's just taking some time, because he's young and started out less mature than others. I've seen Butler get on Haywood's case a few times recently - when he goes up soft with a shot. Hopefully, he does the same with Blatche. But with Blatche, it's probably as much what he does off the court as on - He generally looks tired in games when he doesn't perform well. He's just got to take the game and preparation more seriously.

No disagreement but:

There are some dirty tricks and attitudes that a Big Man can get a way with that Caron and Jamison can't teach. Ways to shove your man off the block, ways to put your weight on a player then drop off and step around, and a certain attitude and confidence that comes from recognizing you'r e 7 foot and not a face-up guard.

You got to know Big John Thompson would ride (and deride) this kid until he developed the defensive swagger and coldhearted poise that the best of the Gtown bigs developed under him. A certain ownership of the paint, a proprietary feel, and a desire to defend and protect your teammates. Pat, Zo, Deke, all had it.

Now I like his dexterity with the ball, passing skill, potential jumpshot, ability to swat a steal, rebounding knack, handle for a big. I'd hate to take away any of that. But if I could get the kid a tutoring session with say Bill Russell, and had a Mark Cuban type who would pay to hire a coach to make this kid his own personal project, well then he wouldn't get away with just relying on pure talent and a long walk up the learning curve of his best potential.

Caron and Jamison I like, but they have jobs of their own. And where this kid could end up, they can't show him the way. Same way Brendan has had to grow himself up a bunch. Big men take a longer time to learn, because they're longer people, maybe. But I would be deeply satisfied if we had a big man specialist on retainer to help haul him up that long steep hill. Or at least, drill sergeant-wise stand behind him and bark at him to move his ass. No slacking.

At the top end, Big Man skills aren't necessarily intuitive, you got to have a certain perspective on it. Attitude and effort. Know how to use force and take care of yourself. When to exert effort and where and how to coast. Let your size work for you. Got to be willing to shoulder the load without glamor alot of the time. Be willing to be the center of the wheel, where it may not look like you're doing as much, but everything revolves around you.

Way I see it.

[keynote]

-= original quote snipped =-

(rhetorical questions posed against straw man "Arenas = Jordan" position)

I'll also be clear. Yes: I think a healthy Gil can be the best player on a championship team. I think Gil is comparable to Wade who, as I said above, was the Top Dog on a championship team. Shaq may have carried the mantle of leadership in the locker room, but Wade led that team on the floor.

Similarly, Gil might defer to veteran leaders in the locker room when it comes to things like pushing the rookies and setting a tone of professionalism. But on the floor, healthy Gil can (and did) lead the Wizards. And, during an admittedly-brief sample size at the beginning of the season, Gil did show a willingness to embrace the Ayers-driven approach to team defense. He may not be Jordan-esque on the defensive end, but I don't think he has to be, so long as the team continues to perfect their understanding of the new scheme.

On a side note: I also think that it's necessary for a starting PG to be a defensive stopper to be great--or, for their team to have great success. Most defensive stoppers are long swingmen (Bowen, Battier, etc), who use their length to guard multiple positions, and who don't have to exert as much energy running the offense. Sure, history has seen defensive PGs come off the bench in limited (e.g., Randy Brown); and there are a few all-timers like Oscar, and a few combo guards like Dennis Johnson, Alvin Robertson and Clyde Frazier. In more recent years, I can only think of Kidd and Gary Payton--and only Payton carried a significant part of the scoring load. I've always found Billups overrated on the defensive end--during his championship run, he had 3 All-Defense candidates playing behind him in the frontcourt.

Anyway, in contrast: Magic, Cousy, Stockton, Isiah, Tiny, Nash, Parker, etc. were or all considered average or below average one-on-one defenders.

Once you factor in recent rule changes (and the inevitable decline of Kidd and Payton), it's extremely difficult to ID starting PGs who are defensive stoppers. No one gets to play D like Derek Harper anymore. Paul gets a ton of steals, but he doesn't shut people down. Maybe Deron has a shot, but that's about it. Even Hinrich has fallen off.

Of course, this is because PGs are hard to guard. Period. They're usually quick--with a ton of handles--and benefit from constant picks, weaves, and motion. They operate at the top of the set--where there's more real estate to cover--as opposed to the wing or block, which lend themselves to weak-side assistance. Since PGs are usually smaller, they have a more difficult time getting around picks than their larger teammates do.

Anyway, this long digression isn't to say that Gil can't still improve on the defensive end. Rather, I just don't think that he's exceptionally bad at D for a starting PG. And, I think that having an improved team defensive concept is more important for team success than improved defensive play from the PG.

[dobrojim]

I'm using "thug" as a catch-all term to include getting LOTS of rebounds, playing defense, and generally not taking crap off of anyone. Another way of putting it would be to say they need an increase of frontcourt toughness. Real toughness, not the faux toughness Etan has offered in the past. A guy who would quite happily put Lebron on his behind and then not offer a hand to help him up.

I don't care how he's built, and I'd obviously prefer a guy with skills. But I think the team needs more toughness upfront. They have some of that on the wings in Deshawn and Caron. Now they need it from a big.

My hope is similar to yours -- that Blatche could become that guy. Collison might be okay. Noah? Seems more whiny than tough.

I don't mind him helping leTravel up and softly saying he wasn't
sorry and he'll do it again. With a smile.



the other thing I think we could really use is a really nasty
defensive PG who makes life miserable for the opp PG and
could do a better job stopping penetration. When you have that
combined with good D in the paint, which Haywood provides,
that goes a long way to being a really good defensive team.
The other guys simply don't have to be as good when you have
great D at the 1 and the 5.

edit to add I don't necessarily disagree either with the points made
by keynote above re PGs

[nate33]

I nominate keynote for underrated poster of the year. What he lacks in quantity he makes up in quality.

Nice couple of posts today keynote! You are on fiyah!

[Ruzious]

Doc, one of those players you mentioned would probably be really good at larnin up young Blatche - Zo - if he finally retires and comes back home. I remember his 2nd to last season at G-town - He had a tough year because he played most of it with an injury. So, he became a mean SOB - to get through that season at a competition level he could accept - dude was born with a chip on his shoulder and a crazed need to win. And he used every dirty trick that Coach Thompson could teach him and then some. Ewing - he's too nice a guy. Dikembe - when you're that big and skilled, you don't have to learn the little things. Zo, he's a mean SOB who outworked everyone. I'd bet on him being the one who could get through to a player or beat the crap out of him trying.

[nate33]

Doc, one of those players you mentioned would probably be really good at larnin up young Blatche - Zo - if he finally retires and comes back home. I remember his 2nd to last season at G-town - He had a tough year because he played most of it with an injury. So, he became a mean SOB - to get through that season at a competition level he could accept - dude was born with a chip on his shoulder and a crazed need to win. And he used every dirty trick that Coach Thompson could teach him and then some. Ewing - he's too nice a guy. Dikembe - when you're that big and skilled, you don't have to learn the little things. Zo, he's a mean SOB who outworked everyone. I'd bet on him being the one who could get through to a player or beat the crap out of him trying.

I wouldn't mind having him as our emergency third-string center either (after finding a way to unload Etan). He could probably still play 10-15 minutes a game every other game or so.

[daboywonder2002]

if you want to win a championship you need interior defense. im sorry but do you think teams fear jamison and haywood. thats one of the softest frontcourt combos in the league next to okur/boozer. ALL O AND NO D!!!!. im not saying you need both guys to be defensive minded but at least one.