How Kohl has changed over the years

pilprin · Post #1 » by **pilprin** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 5:22 pm

When LH was fired, I really thought there would be an announcement as to the new GM right after that. But as the days goes by it is reinforcing a trend that I have noticed eversince that fateful summer of the Michael Jordan owner fiasco.

When George Karl was hired as HC - it was on the heals of an oddly timed firing of Chris Ford (I think that is who it was). The hiring was all but in the books when the firing came down. It was quick and decisive.

The following year or so the same thing happened with the Grunfeld hiring to replace Weinhauer. In both cases he saw a quality amn and went and got them

On June 29th 2003 it all went to hell. He decides to not sell the team to Jordan (who may or may not have moved it) Grunfeld leaves and 6 weeks later Karl is done.

Boom! Quality to the crapper and the rest is history - mediocrity / meddling / mistakes / embarassment!

Kohl needs to find a GM he trusts. Unfortunately his age may prevent that - sorry not a slam against old people. He needs to be decisive and not be afraid of making the wrong decision from time to time.

Will it happen? Only of the Herbie of old returns.

brewguru · Post #2 » by **brewguru** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 6:33 pm

It happened way before then, actually.

After the Del Harris fiasco, Herbie tried to go out and make a big splash. He hired Mike Dunleavy away from the Lakers to an unheard-of 8-year contract to run the team.

Problem was, he didn't have a General Manager. When you hire a GM, first thing he usually does is hire a coach. Not in this case. So he couldn't find anyone to take the GM's job, so he just told Dunleavy to do both jobs.

Dunleavy was not qualified to be GM. And, after 4 years, what does Herbie decide to do? Tell Dunleavy to concentrate on only one job, so what job does he leave him in? The General Manager's chair.

Dunleavy (or Kohl) then hired Mike Dunleavy, Jr. (Chris Ford) to be coach. This lasted a year, then Herbie hired Bob Weinhauer as GM, but he couldn't hire his own coach either.

2 years later, he fires the coach and brings in George Karl. Even though Weinhauer was the GM, Karl ran the show. 2 years later, with Karl still here, he hired Ernie Grunfeld as GM to get the players Karl wanted (Karl still being in charge).

Finally, he gets rid of both of them, hired Harris, but doesn't give LH any power in that Kohl hired/fired the coaches and told him what trades he could and couldn't make.

In other words, Herb Kohl hasn't changed in 22 years.

pilprin · Post #3 » by **pilprin** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 7:11 pm

I forgot about the Dunleavy mess. Good reinder and insight. I do wish he would at least make a bold move again.

brewguru · Post #4 » by **brewguru** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 8:29 pm

I didn't even mention the Don Nelson fiasco.

Nelson was, of course, very successful as coach and GM of the Bucks--7 straight division titles. Herbie bought the team at the tailend of the 5th straight season.

He immediately clashed with Nelson because of his meddling ways. One main point of contention was with Nelson's selection of Scott Skiles in the '86 draft. (That's why I laughed when people mentioned Skiles as a coaching candidate with the Bucks--that would make things come full circle).

Nelson "resigned" in May of '87 and the Bucks have been the dregs of the league ever since.

InsideOut · Post #5 » by **InsideOut** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 8:38 pm

Kohl hasn't changes at all. Except for a one year aberration, the Bucks have been irrelevant for roughly 17 of the past 18 seasons. If that isn't consistency I don't know what is.

BuckHole · Post #6 » by **BuckHole** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 3:46 am

I'm curious, how do you really know Kohl is a meddler? Do you have behind the scenes info? God knows the papers don't report on it. It seems people imply and make up conclusions on what it may appear to explain our team's problems.

Andrew34r · Post #7 » by **Andrew34r** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 3:47 am

Fraederichs wrote:I'm curious, how do you really know Kohl is a meddler? Do you have behind the scenes info? God know the papers don't report on it. It seems people imply and make up conclusions on what it may appear to explain our problems.

Are you kidding?

trwi7 · Post #8 » by **trwi7** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 3:51 am

Balder. Wrinklier. Gayer.

Andrew34r · Post #9 » by **Andrew34r** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 3:53 am

http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=730325

I guess being in Madison you may not have the same sports talk that we do around here but its a usual topic on sports radio stations.

icat2000 · Post #10 » by **icat2000** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 3:55 am

Fraederichs wrote:I'm curious, how do you really know Kohl is a meddler? Do you have behind the scenes info? God know the papers don't report on it. It seems people imply and make up conclusions on what it may appear to explain our problems.

Spend 24 hours and read the threads for the past three years. Then come back and ask that question.

Matt Foley · Post #11 » by **Matt Foley** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 5:02 am

trwi7 wrote:Balder. Wrinklier. Gayer.

dont forget creepier

beyond_the_arc · Post #12 » by **beyond_the_arc** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 8:22 am

Fraederichs wrote:I'm curious, how do you really know Kohl is a meddler? Do you have behind the scenes info? God knows the papers don't report on it. It seems people imply and make up conclusions on what it may appear to explain our team's problems.

Are you Dan Kohl?

NeedsMoreCheese · Post #13 » by **NeedsMoreCheese** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 9:52 am

Fraederichs wrote:I'm curious, how do you really know Kohl is a meddler? Do you have behind the scenes info? God knows the papers don't report on it. It seems people imply and make up conclusions on what it may appear to explain our team's problems.

Hold up,

Wait,

This dude was serious wasnt he?

zizek · Post #14 » by **zizek** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 9:36 pm

If you're interested in changing the management situation you might want to inform Bucks fans who come here looking for info about management instead of driving them away. Most Bucks fans don't follow management issues and they have only recently made the paper. You can be a Bucks snob or help increase public pressure to change management.

heynow · Post #15 » by **heynow** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 1:25 am

brewguru wrote:I didn't even mention the Don Nelson fiasco.

Nelson was, of course, very successful as coach and GM of the Bucks--7 straight division titles. Herbie bought the team at the tailend of the 5th straight season.

He immediately clashed with Nelson because of his meddling ways. One main point of contention was with Nelson's selection of Scott Skiles in the '86 draft. (That's why I laughed when people mentioned Skiles as a coaching candidate with the Bucks--that would make things come full circle).

Nelson "resigned" in May of '87 and the Bucks have been the dregs of the league ever since.

Dead on analysis Brewguru.
Some how Bucks fans want to believe this is a recent development. This whole mess goes back to the tail end of the Nelson/Embry regime.
It was Nelson and Embry that Kohl butted heads with over a number of things that reached its boil when Nellie drafted Skiles in 86.

Kohl has never replaced that talent evaluation team. It was Nellie and Embry and the quality scouting people they attracted that allowed the Bucks to compete.