3rd, 4th, 6th man of your Celtics

[nightstarstolen]

To me Rondo has eclipsed contributions of Ray Allen. He makes the fast break go.

I think without Perkins, we have 2 under sized PF's to substitute, and a very old Vet in PJ, KG doesn't play well at C. Add to that, Perk's amazing defense, shutting down completely guys like Binum.

Ray to me should have been a 6th man, Ginobli spark scoring 20pts off the bench.

Also, who do you think deserves 6th man award:

House
Posey
Powe
Cassell
Tony Allen

All worthy candidates.

[Celtics_85]

Posey without a double thought. He has been solid all year for this team.

[TheCelticTruth]

some of your sentiments here almost contradict your statements in the "ray allen is misused" thread. i dont agree that ray should come off the bench. he is far too good. ginobili is not the same caliber of player ray is, however much people buy into his acting. in my mind flopping is not a basketball skill. if it was maybe hed be the mvp. what ginobili does for the spurs is impressive sure, but their team is constructed differently from ours.

neither KG or duncan require the ball for the team to win, but that team flows through duncan more than ours does through KG, and so the ginobili change of pace is more important. ray is our insurance policy, that if PP or KG has trouble getting the team going, we know ray will knock down shots. also the spurs bench lacks scorers despite the fact that their role players are generally very complete. house and allen can both score in spurts, and davis, powe, posey etc have no trouble scoring either, so its not like our bench cant score if ray is with the starting five.

[P2]

I think Tony is the true 6th man. He still makes stupid mistakes, but when he's on, he really makes other teams pay.

[cloverleaf]

I think Posey was the 6th man for the first half of the season, but Powe's coming on strong as 6th man for the second half.

And Rondo's one of the real 'Big 3' for sure.

[celticfan42487]

Gino plays as much a starting role as Ray does. He may get some less minutes but he IS the Spurs offense for long spurts. There are even times when Duncan is in and they just give Gino the ball and let him go to work one on one

[Jammer]

Let's see, 45 minutes against Phoenix for Ray Allen.

Paul Pierce, for the first time this year, after Ray's 24 mpg against New Orleans, has passed Ray Allen in mpg, 36.9 vs. 36.8. And that's because Doc has been rolling back the minutes for PGA for about 15 games, Ray was near 39 for most of the season.

I think that the reason this season worked so well is that Danny and Doc understood personalities, and succeeded where Red Auerbach succeeded in the 50's, 60's and 70's and got players who play to win, without bitching about their numbers.

Ray gave up 7 shots per game from last season.

Take 7 shots from Kobe or Chris Paul and then tell me how great their numbers look.

Ray is in some ways the biggest reason this PGA concept worked, because he plays tons of minutes, but doesn't use up the shots. Actually, Pierce and Garnett also take 3 fewer shots per game than last season, so the overall talent improvement is a factor.

Looking at NET PER, which is your offensive PER minus the PER of the man you are guarding at any given point in a game, the Celtics NET PER ranking is:

+15.3 Kevin Garnett (has led NBA past 4 seasons)
+09.6 Paul Pierce
+06.4 Ray Allen
+04.1 Gabe Pruitt (68 total minutes are not statistically significant)
+01.6 Eddie House
+01.6 Leon Powe
+01.5 Tony Allen
+00.1 Rajon Rondo
-00.4 Kendrick Perkins
-02.5 Glen Davis
-03.5 PJ Brown
-03.9 James Posey (guarding LeBron James will do wonders to this #)
-09.1 Brian Scalabrine
-12.9 Scot Pollard
-15.3 Sam Cassell (based on 153 Celtic minutes only, ouch)

I'd say that it's pretty clear from the rotation time (minutes of court time), and contributions, that the Celtics team player ranking is:

1. Kevin Garnett
2. Paul Pierce
3. Ray Allen
4. Rajon Rondo
5. Kendrick Perkins
6. James Posey
7. Eddie House
8. Tony Allen
9. Leon Powe
10. Glen Davis
11. PJ Brown
12. Sam Cassell (based on expectations)
13. Gabe Pruitt
14. Brian Scalabrine
15. Scot Pollard

[Zin5]

James Posey as sixth man. Others have stepped up more than him off the bench at times, but he's really been the most consistent guy off the bench all year round.

[nightstarstolen]

some of your sentiments here almost contradict your statements in the "ray allen is misused" thread. i dont agree that ray should come off the bench. he is far too good. ginobili is not the same caliber of player ray is, however much people buy into his acting. in my mind flopping is not a basketball skill. if it was maybe hed be the mvp. what ginobili does for the spurs is impressive sure, but their team is constructed differently from ours.

neither KG or duncan require the ball for the team to win, but that team flows through duncan more than ours does through KG, and so the ginobili change of pace is more important. ray is our insurance policy, that if PP or KG has trouble getting the team going, we know ray will knock down shots. also the spurs bench lacks scorers despite the fact that their role players are generally very complete. house and allen can both score in spurts, and davis, powe, posey etc have no trouble scoring either, so its not like our bench cant score if ray is with the starting five.

I agree with your second point.

Ray Allen is my 3rd favorite player, however, he is not on Ginobli's radar.

Ginobli has won tons of accolades on international level, is as deadly shooter as Ray, and was the 2nd, sometimes first best player on Spurs for 3 rings.

I'm sorry, but Ginobli is about Pierce's level at this point.

The 2nd unit is subpar, middle of the ground. If Ray was on bench he would anchor it, and score his 20+.

We already proved that we can win tough games without Ray at all on West coast.

[Truthiracy]

I'm sorry, but Ginobli is about Pierce's level at this point.

The only thing Manu does better than Pierce is play European Defense.

Manu GinoBILI is no where near Pierce's level, that has to be a joke.

[nightstarstolen]

That is very true, i didn't consider defense and Pierce's wide array of moves. However, do not for a second underestimate Ginobli. Without him San Antonio is in the crapper even with Duncan.

[Bad-Thoma]

-= original quote snipped =-



I agree with your second point.

Ray Allen is my 3rd favorite player, however, he is not on Ginobli's radar.

Ginobli has won tons of accolades on international level, is as deadly shooter as Ray, and was the 2nd, sometimes first best player on Spurs for 3 rings.

I'm sorry, but Ginobli is about Pierce's level at this point.

The 2nd unit is subpar, middle of the ground. If Ray was on bench he would anchor it, and score his 20+.

We already proved that we can win tough games without Ray at all on West coast.

Tons of accolades? C'mon, Ginobili is good, but this is some bs your spewin. Replace Manure with Paul or Ray in the Spurs championships teams and see what they produce, they both have a better skill set. Put Ginobili on the some of the Celtic's teams of the past few years and tell him to be Paul Pierce, and the defensive focus that Paul has always had would kill him.

[BobbySura]

ray is not better than manu, that's freaking hilarious. manu is easily the second best guard in the league right now. pierce? it's closer but i'd still take manu over him, but they play different positions so it's pointless to compare them. manu is a star.

[Bad-Thoma]

Manu is the second best guard, huh? That's a joke. He gets some steals, but other than that he's not that great of a defender, he's more gambler than lockdown. As for offensively, You got Kobe, AI, D Wade before he was hurt, Joe Johnson, Kevin Martin, Michael Redd, T-Mac, J-Rich are all putting up better numbers than Manure. Hell even Corey Maggette and Wince Carter are putting up better numbers. As a general rule, these guys aren't playing alongside Tim Duncan and Tony Parker caliber guys, very few people are that fortunate. Ray Allen could produce similar numbers as a go to guy in that offense (he's put up better his whole career with barely a supporting cast in milwaukee and seattle), he just happens to be the guy who has really sacrificed his offense the most to make this work. Ray has been playing excellent defense. As for Pierce, Manure couldn't carry his jockstrap, the only thing he's better at is flopping around to try and get a call. Not to be hard on Manu, because I think he is a good player, and I'd take him over some of the guys putting up better numbers just on the energy factor, but to call him easily the second best 2 in the league is a joke. I just hate watching him bounce off people like Reggie Miller impersonating a drunken ping pong ball and getting to the line on bs calls.

[nightstarstolen]

Manu is the most under rated player in the entire league...

He is one of the best international players every to play, winning titles with his home country several times.

In his nba career he has carried San Antonio as the 2nd and sometimes 1st option in playoffs resulting in 3 rings.

He is as deadly a shooter as Ray, but with slashing abilities of Pierce.

So while Pierce with his defense, this year, over takes Ginobli, any other year, it would be a close call.

[TheCelticTruth]

those are ridiculous statements and why i dont like manu ginobili. the man is nowhere near a great basketball player. he is streaky, and the only thing that gets him through his treaks are his ridiculous flops. i wish the basketball world was tougher on that. if manu is the second best guard than bruce bowen must be almost as good as lebron. that is ridiculous.

manu is the kind of guy in the lacrosse world that would get hurt for his lack of respect for the game.

i wont say he isnt good at all, because that would be unfair and would be my personal distaste for him overcoming rational thought, but the man is a flopper and he is not the second best guard. he is not better than yao, gasol, dirk, nash, or parker so hes not even top 5 international players. manu is a niche player, his skills could be used on any team, but its not like hes worlds better than peja stojakovic. the suprs need manu exactly so his vaue for them is greater than elsewhere. if he didnt flop to draw fouls, he would probably score half as much as he does.

[Bad-Thoma]

Manu is the most under rated player in the entire league...

He is one of the best international players every to play, winning titles with his home country several times.

In his nba career he has carried San Antonio as the 2nd and sometimes 1st option in playoffs resulting in 3 rings.

He is as deadly a shooter as Ray, but with slashing abilities of Pierce.

So while Pierce with his defense, this year, over takes Ginobli, any other year, it would be a close call.

No dude, it's never been a close call. Pierce is a far and away a better player than Manu. Tim Duncan carries the Spurs when it counts, thus the finals MVP trophies that are sitting in his house and not in Manu's. Tony Parker makes it all happen. Manu is a good player, but you're overrating him.

[nightstarstolen]

possibly!

but you guys are under rating him

[TheCelticTruth]

please elaborate on your belief, weve expressed ours.

[TheCelticTruth]

manus awards/recognitions have been 1 rookie of the month, all-nba rookie second team, and a reserve on one all star team in six years with career averages of 15 points 4 rebounds and 4 assists (rebounds and assists rounded up)

ray in 12 years, started on the all-nba rookie second team as well, from there he has been an eight time all star, been on the all-nba second team once and the all-nba third team once. he has won the three point shooting contest, holds a few three point shooting records and is 69th on the all time scoring list behind bob cousy. his career averages are 21 points 5 rebounds four assists.

paul pierce has played ten seasons in the nba. his rookie year he was all-nba rookie first team, and has been on the all-nba third team twice with career averages of 23 points 6 rebounds (6.4) and 4 assists, not to mention two steals per game. he has been a six time all star, he led the nba in total points 2002 and free throws made in '03. he holds the nba playoff record for most free throws made without a miss, holds a number of celtics franchise records and is their second all time scorer behind larry bird both in average and total points. not to mention the stabbing incident in which he was stabbed 11 times in the face neck and back, had to have lunger surgery to repair damage, and still started all 82 games that year (the incident was in lat september close to the start of the season)

so i dont think manu is close to ray allen, and i KNOW he is nowhere near the man or basketball player pierce is. shaq dubbed him the truth for a reason.