Has any champion taken a nosedive as fast as Miami?

Elway=GOAT · Post #21 » by **Elway=GOAT** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:24 pm

Riley has had alot of success but he has alot of failure too. I want my coach to be more consistant, for as great as a rebuilder and gm and all that, he sure seems to have alot of bad teams too(well, since he has hit Miami, I dont recall him having alot of real bad teams with the Knicks, or the Lakers).

Elway=GOAT · Post #22 » by **Elway=GOAT** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:31 pm

Flash3 wrote:Riley's track record has proved otherwise, he knows how to build teams time and time again. He's done it in the past, and there's no reason to believe (with all the positivity we have going forward) that it can't be done.

BBallFreak covered it pretty well as to Riley's track record with the team.

This team has Wade & Marion as their core, for now; with Cook, Wright, Haslem rounding out the rest of their players. That's a pretty solid 5 man group, not including our draft picks and our MLE.

This team won't be down for long, especially not with Wade at the helm.

I know he had that great finals, but is he someone you should really be that confident in? I mean the guy as of now is averaging 19 missed games a year, and its getting worse as the seasons go on. The last two seasons it is around 30. On top of that, if they were a playoff team it would be the second year in a row he would show up to the playoffs severely injured from an NBA player standpoint. His way of playing, age, miles of his body tell me that, thats going to be a trend. Not a fluke couple of seasons. I think he only has a 2-3 more year window till they can get competitive and he can consistantly put a team on his back, and that is if he does not have another crazy devistating injury.

Scalabrine · Post #23 » by **Scalabrine** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:42 pm

lj4mvp wrote:why is riley getting so much praise - isn't he the guy who got them into this mess? The guy he pushed aside to bask in the glory is doing just fine in Orlando.

As for the team, just how bad would tonight's game have been if Boston doesn't let up on them?

Boston opened a 27-4 lead in the first quarter. Celtics coach Doc Rivers started subbing for his starters just 7:10 into the game, letting the backups handle the end of the first quarter, most of the second and all of the fourth.

Who ever heard of an NBA game being over with 41 minutes left to play? Did riley even show up for this one or did he bail on the team again?

seriously, how hasnt he been criticized to no end? He has done a worse job than Isiah Thomas and Kevin McHale this season? Dont believe me? Check the record and they supposedly have a top 5 player in the league. The Heat Suck, they are a bigger drop off in NBA History considering there two big players for the championship run (Shaq and Wade) were still on the team this season, the season was already long gone before Shaq was traded half way through the season. Youd think if Wade was so good he could lead them to more than 9 wins no?

Post #24 » by **Flash3** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:55 pm

Scalabrine wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

seriously, how hasnt he been criticized to no end? He has done a worse job than Isiah Thomas and Kevin McHale this season? Dont believe me? Check the record and they supposedly have a top 5 player in the league. The Heat Suck, they are a bigger drop off in NBA History considering there two big players for the championship run (Shaq and Wade) were still on the team this season, the season was already long gone before Shaq was traded half way through the season. Youd think if Wade was so good he could lead them to more than 9 wins no?

do you throw up the same regurgitated garbage every Heat/Wade thread you enter?

Post #25 » by **Flash3** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:57 pm

Elway=GOAT wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

I know he had that great finals, but is he someone you should really be that confident in? I mean the guy as of now is averaging 19 missed games a year, and its getting worse as the seasons go on. The last two seasons it is around 30. On top of that, if they were a playoff team it would be the second year in a row he would show up to the playoffs severely injured from an NBA player standpoint. His way of playing, age, miles of his body tell me that, thats going to be a trend. Not a fluke couple of seasons. I think he only has a 2-3 more year window till they can get competitive and he can consistantly put a team on his back, and that is if he does not have another crazy devistating injury.

That remains to be seen. Last I checked, no 1 player can carry a team w/o efficient scoring around him, in addition to defense, plus a boat load of other intagibles.

Wade's got a lot to prove, as does this Heat team over the next ~2 years as they get into "Cap Heaven" -- as Riley onced called it; coining 2010 the year the Heat are officially Wade's team, but that transition has already started with the departure of the Big Diesel.

Heat3 · Post #26 » by **Heat3** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:59 pm

How has he done a worse job than Isiah? At the beginning of the season people on here were saying that the Heat sold their future. That they buried in bad contracts and wouldn't be able to compete for years. Well less than one season later and we are rid of Shaq's and Antoine Walker's HUGE contracts. We have a lot of cap space this year, even more next year. We also have a top 4 pick. Seems like he's done a damn good job to me. One season of sacrifice.....

Post #27 » by **INKtastic** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 3:06 pm

^^ some experts had the heat picked to win their division. Most had them in the playoffs.

Who here really thinks Riley will stick around as coach and not bail like he's done 3 times before?

He took over a Lakers team who had already won a championship when their coach got in a wreck.

He bailed on them to go to NY to coach Ewing.

When he couldn't win with Ewing, he bailed on them to go coach the Alonzo in Miami.

When the heat season looked hopeless, he quit the heat and gave the job to Van Gundy. Van Gundy coached the team to a better record than anyone thought possible, which made it possible to get shaq. Van Gundy nearly won the championship the first year Shaq was there - playoff injuries derailed him. Someone - shaq or riley - ran van gundy out and the heat won. Now they are a mess. Given his track record for bailing on teams, does anyone really think Riley will keep coaching long enough to turn the heat around this time?

Post #28 » by **Flash3** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 3:40 pm

lj4mvp wrote:^^ some experts had the heat picked to win their division. Most had them in the playoffs.

Who here really thinks Riley will stick around as coach and not bail like he's done 3 times before?

His best work has come when he's focused on one thing, be it coaching or front office work.

And, if he can remain GM/President of this team, focusing 100% of his time to that, this team will be back. -- A coach in Eric Spoelstra (who's been with the team for 10 years now), is more than likely the heir.

But that remains to be seen.

lj4mvp wrote:
When he couldn't win with Ewing, he bailed on them to go coach the Alonzo in Miami.

Riley acquired Alonzo Mourning AFTER he took over as coach; that team didn't have Alonzo prior to Riley coming here.

His work speaks volumes for what he's been able to do as far as constructing teams.

Heat3 · Post #29 » by **Heat3** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 3:41 pm

lj4mvp wrote:^^ some experts had the heat picked to win their division. Most had them in the playoffs.

Who here really thinks Riley will stick around as coach and not bail like he's done 3 times before?

He took over a Lakers team who had already won a championship when their coach got in a wreck.

He bailed on them to go to NY to coach Ewing.

When he couldn't win with Ewing, he bailed on them to go coach the Alonzo in Miami.

When the heat season looked hopeless, he quit the heat and gave the job to Van Gundy. Van Gundy coached the team to a better record than anyone thought possible, which made it possible to get shaq. Van Gundy nearly won the championship the first year Shaq was there - playoff injuries derailed him. Someone - shaq or riley - ran van gundy out and the heat won. Now they are a mess. Given his track record for bailing on teams, does anyone really think Riley will keep coaching long enough to turn the heat around this time?

He left the Lakers because the players didn't want to play for him anymore. Riley coaches a certain way and some players aren't cut out to handle it. Some who are get tired of it after a while too. It has happened here in Miami. The older players are the ones who don't want to hear his sermons anymore. A coach can't be effective if his team won't listen now can he...

I don't know wtf you are talking about leaving the Knicks to coach Alonzo in Miami. Alonzo Mourning played for the Hornets. The only good player Miami had when Riley joined was Glen Rice whom he traded for Alonzo. Riley wanted to be the boss, something he could not be in NY. So he came to Miami where he has been the boss for the last 13 years.

Riley coached the Heat through their worst seasons here, once he had the young pieces in place he stepped aside. He would not have returned had it not been Shaq pushing out SVG. Otherwise SVG would still be coach here.

AQuintus · Post #30 » by **AQuintus** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 4:18 pm

Heat3 wrote:...and Antoine Walker's HUGE contracts...

Antoine Walker's deal is expiring after this season. Miami actually took on about 10 million dollars in that trade.

Post #31 » by **jazzfan1971** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 6:41 pm

I call it tanking.

Post #32 » by **Icness** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 6:50 pm

Elway=GOAT wrote:Riley has had alot of success but he has alot of failure too. I want my coach to be more consistant, for as great as a rebuilder and gm and all that, he sure seems to have alot of bad teams too(well, since he has hit Miami, I dont recall him having alot of real bad teams with the Knicks, or the Lakers).

Not picking on you, but you would rather have Jerry Sloan and his zero titles over Riley and his handful? Like another poster said on page one of this thread, I'd rather have one title and a horrible collapse than zero titles and a lot of conference finals losses. Of course my team has never won a title...yet!

Friend_Of_Haley · Post #33 » by **Friend_Of_Haley** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 6:53 pm

Yea, its obviously the Bulls that win this award. Sure they "broke it up", but they set themselves up to the point where that was all they really could do. They invested heavily into old(er) players and were paying guys like Jordan and Rodman on yearly contracts. Its not like they could have kept the core intact and just decided not to, it developed as a result of the way the team was built.

They could have done things to ensure that they didn't nosedive as fast, and they didn't. Don't get me wrong, I'm fine with what they did because it ensured a championship, but they didn't have to do it, so they are not exempt from this discussion.

Patterns · Post #34 » by **Patterns** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:18 pm

Well, to be fair, people were saying that Miami was the worst champion ever.

jboogy13 · Post #35 » by **jboogy13** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:27 pm

what are the chances this happens??

MartyConlonOnTheRun · Post #36 » by **MartyConlonOnTheRun** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:33 pm

Wade+Rose+Marion+Eastern Conference=Better choice than tiger

Scalabrine · Post #37 » by **Scalabrine** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 10:25 pm

Flash3 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

do you throw up the same regurgitated garbage every Heat/Wade thread you enter?

dude do you realize that your doing the same thing?

chill out just put me on ignore or something because it seems like I really piss you off with my beliefs, I dont think im wrong in my beliefs and there are tons of others with the same thinking as me I go on a message board to debate and talk basketball and when I enter a thread im gonna say how I feel about the situation. Take off the rosecolored glasses for once in your life and just chill out because you get mad at me everytime I make a post about it as if I dont have the right. Wade played like crap and put up points on a bad team (how many points per game is Ricky Davis averaging since Wade has been out by the way?) but also turned the ball over a ton and played terrible defense and then shut it down, I really cant see any other way to put it, you can though and ill argue against you because thats what this website ishere for but im not gonna say what you say is garbage every time you something. Your acting like a child (you likely are one) so grow up dude.

Post #38 » by **Flash3** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 10:32 pm

Scalabrine wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

dude do you realize that your doing the same thing?

chill out just put me on ignore or something because it seems like I really piss you off with my beliefs, I dont think im wrong in my beliefs and there are tons of others with the same thinking as me I go on a message board to debate and talk basketball and when I enter a thread im gonna say how I feel about the situation. Take off the rosecolored glasses for once in your life and just chill out because you get mad at me everytime I make a post about it as if I dont have the right. Wade played like crap and put up points on a bad team (how many points per game is Ricky Davis averaging since Wade has been out by the way?) but also turned the ball over a ton and played terrible defense and then shut it down, I really cant see any other way to put it, you can though and ill argue against you because thats what this website ishere for but im not gonna say what you say is garbage every time you something. Your acting like a child (you likely are one) so grow up dude.

Without a team around you, you can't win in this league, it's been proven year in and year out. -- Wade has kept a team missing $20 million worth of talent at or above .500 multiple times the past 3 seasons. He's put up great stats when Shaq has missed time. He carried the Heat in the playoffs when Shaq couldn't, be it vs NJ and Wash in 04-05 or vs Dallas in 05-06. He's answered all the questions about how much Shaq "makes" him who he is, which is not at all. Give him someone who can average 16-18 ppg and 6 other solid rotation players and you'll go far. -- Shaq's $20M could've been used for someone, instead it was sitting on the bench for weeks on end.

Its not that Wade (or Kobe, for that matter) is incapable of winning without Shaq; its that when Shaq represents almost half a team's cap space, but isn't available to play, its gonna be difficult for any star to win. Build a team around any top-tier talent using only ~$30 mil in salary, and see how far you get. You're gonna have either talent issues (no legit second option) or depth issues.

They've shedded Shaq's contract, and are better for it, and now have some good building pieces for the future in Marion, Haslem, Cook, Wright(?), Banks......

They are doing what's best for the team now and in the future. If you don't like it, so be it. Though the fans, the majority of them, clearly understand why this is needed.

Scalabrine · Post #39 » by **Scalabrine** » Tue Apr 1, 2008 2:27 am

this is where I argue against your point that you make in every thread and then after I argue it you say I repeat the same garbage over and over again. You see how pointless this is, I think your a homer and you are defending your team lets argue some Knicks and I will be on your end arguing for my team (or a select few that actually deserve to wear that uniform). Your wasting your time responding to me with such long posts when im telling you it really doesnt matter what you tell me I see what I see and you see what you want to see and we arent going to agree.

jaseda510 · Post #40 » by **jaseda510** » Wed Apr 2, 2008 4:06 pm

A healthy Wade will win at least triple that amount next year.

Riley is only in it to win it. Not to win 42 games and get knocked out in the first round of the playoffs.

When he realized how flawed of a team this was earlier in the season, that there's really no way the Heat could contend for another title with a declining Shaq, Wade who's still coming off of two surgeries, and a bunch of spare parts, major changes needed to be made, and that rebuilding had to start right now.

The Heat's future looks alot better now than it would have with its salary cap still saddled with Shaq, Antoine Walker, and Jason Kapono while strugging to get home court advantage and probably eliminated in the first round again in the playoffs.

Has any champion taken a nosedive as fast as Miami?

Does Miami make the playoffs next season??

Does Miami make the playoffs next season??