Kobe will have a better career than MJ...

[Jordan23Forever]

17-38 and 14-16 is great no matter how you try to skew it...

It's really not, though. It's okay for a high volume game, but not "great."

For comparison's sake, Kobe scored 1.152 points per possession (ppp) used in that game. Of Jordan's 38 games of 50+ points, only 1 was as bad as/worse than that (1.137 ppp). Even Kobe himself has only had a few games of 50+ that were that poor. Which means that it isn't "great," it's merely "okay" as far as 50+ point games go, which is exactly what I said.

In other words, stop being querulous.

[Jordan23Forever]

Wtf? You are quoting LAST SEASON, I already addressed that and said you were right... I then went through every season since 2000.

All that matters is what he's done since being the focal point of the defense, which was the 2005 season. Who gives a toss what he did in 2000-2003?

Speaking of muddying the issue, why are you including how many shots and possessions he took? Trying to "rate" the games and discredit him scoring 40 points in the first place is just petty.

I was trying to preempt comments to the effect of "see, he had great games of 53 points vs. Houston, which was a good team!" when in actuality one of those games was merely okay as far as 50+ point games go and the other was downright poor. Again, he only had one truly great game of 40+ point against a good team all of last season.

If you are that insecure about Kobe I suggest you go lock yourself in your room and watch some Jordan DVD's until you feel better about yourself.

And I suggest that you refrain from insulting people.

[blkout]

All that matters is what he's done since being the focal point of the defense, which was the 2005 season. Who gives a toss what he did in 2000-2003?

LOL oh right so all that matters is that we skew the sample size to only fit your argument. Funny how that works isn't it?

I was trying to preempt comments to the effect of "see, he had great games of 53 points vs. Houston, which was a good team!" when in actuality one of those games was merely okay as far as 50+ point games go and the other was downright poor. Again, he only had one truly great game of 40+ point against a good team all of last season.

No you weren't, you were trying to discredit him. You put forward an immensely weak argument and now you're coming up with this. Who are you to decide what constitutes a "good" or "great" or "poor" game? Did someone put you in charge of this at some point?

And I suggest that you refrain from insulting people.

I fail to see any insults in what I just said.

We've gone from "It's a definite pattern" to "It only counts from 2005" to "The games he scored 40+ in weren't even that good anyway". It's like when you're a kid playing a game and someone keeps losing so they just change the rules until they finally win.

[Jordan23Forever]

Who are you to decide what constitutes a "good" or "great" or "poor" game? Did someone put you in charge of this at some point?

Umm, it's prima facie. 53 points while using 51 possessions is poor as far as high volume scoring games go.

We've gone from "It's a definite pattern" to "It only counts from 2005" to "The games he scored 40+ in weren't even that good anyway". It's like when you're a kid playing a game and someone keeps losing so they just change the rules until they finally win.

Actually, if you can't understand that the dynamics of the game are different when you're the #1 option, and the focus of the defense, as compared to when you have a top 7 all-time player in his prime alongside you, then that's your problem.

[blkout]

Now we've gone completely off the original argument and you're fighting about how valid his 40+ point games are and why the earlier seasons shouldn't count (the ones that don't support your argument).

[shrink]

Kobe would have to have some unreal Barry Bonds type turn in his career to even sniff what MJ accomplished. That's not a knock on Bryant though.

Agreed - but he will have to lead his team to a few years of success. I'll add though that if he can start getting a ring or two without Shaq, that I think he will go down as better than Pippen (6 rings) though.

[Hiphophead101]

He wont. MJ put up 30.1 a game when defense was a bigger part of the game. I hate to see people compare the two its not even close... Pippen was saying that after Kobe dropped 81 that game. I believe its a different game now and its to drastic of a game nowadays to compare the two.

[EHL]

[quote="conleyorbust"][/quote]

I can't really help that you don't watch Bryant that often to see there are at least a dozen or more players in the NBA right now that have superior athleticism, quickness, and strength to Bryant at the same height or taller. The fact that you don't realize it is none of my concern.

[Nebroc]

He wont. MJ put up 30.1 a game when defense was a bigger part of the game. I hate to see people compare the two its not even close... Pippen was saying that after Kobe dropped 81 that game. I believe its a different game now and its to drastic of a game nowadays to compare the two.

Pippen's word doesn't mean much. I wouldn't like Kobe if he abused me countless times in the playoffs either. Remember- Pippen is the same guys who think most GMs would take him over Jordan. Oh, and Lebron will be better then Jordan.

[AKfanatic]

Oh yay that same ole debate "player A better than Jordan". Who is it today? Lebron, Grant Hill, Vince Carter, Harold Miner, Anfernee Hardaway, Kobe etc. etc. etc.

There is a reason all the talking heads and fans try to compare modern players to Jordan. Jordan is the gold standard. Jordan is what players like Kobe dream to become, and what announcers and "experts" pray to see again. Kobe is a great player in his own right, but he never will be as great as Jordan. Part of the reason MJ was so great is the competition he had to overcome. I hear all this talk about him not having to play with the superior athletes that Kobe plays against..what a joke. We're not talking like MJ played in the 40's. How much better would Kobe be if he had to overcome handchecks and rough banging defenses such as the Pistons/Knicks? /start sacrasim I know I know Isiah, Dumars, Rodman, Salley, the Microwave, Aguirre, Laimbeer aren't nothin compared to the Suns and Mavs now /end sarcasim.

Then theres the usual talk, "well if Jordan had prime Shaq he wouldn't blah blah blah". Ya i'm sure a guy who demanded triple teams everytime he sniffed the ball wouldn't have any benefit from playing with one of the most dominant bigs ever. No way to prove it, but i'm betting with MJ's drive he and Shaq would've been Bill Russells Celtics dominant. Defenses would still double/triple both, but it'd be much slower getting from one to the other leading to plenty of high percentage shots by both. I'd be scared to think of how well two both would've been if they meshed. Not that they weren't both great.

Anyway, leave the comparisons be and let Kobe be Kobe, i'm sure when it's all said and done he'll be happy with what he achieves. Unless of course his only true goal is to surpass MJ's legacy, then he'll have to live with that disappointment.

[Blame Rasho]

Kobe is good, but will never have a greater career compared to MJ.... It sucks to admit that but it is true...

[ILikeTheGrizz]

Kobe is a great, great player, but when people try to compare him favorably to Jordan it's like they planned to hype him up and make him look great ("Kobe>Jordan!"), but it backfires badly and then you end up just looking at the ways he can't measure up to him.

Let's compare him to like Drexler or something to he can look good. Or West, at least that can be an argument. Something where we can focus on his pros and not his cons.

It's refreshing to see so many Laker fans admit Jordan was better though. In like 2001/2002 you couldn't find one in the whole wide internet that didn't think Kobe would end up better.

[conleyorbust]

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I can't really help that you don't watch Bryant that often to see there are at least a dozen or more players in the NBA right now that have superior athleticism, quickness, and strength to Bryant at the same height or taller. The fact that you don't realize it is none of my concern.

... and I can't help it if you didn't watch Jordan enough to realize that Kobe isn't as instinctual, competitive, tough, or motivated as him...

[EHL]

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... and I can't help it if you didn't watch Jordan enough to realize that Kobe isn't as instinctual, competitive, tough, or motivated as him...

How are these (very debatable and completely irrelevant) points germane to the fact that perimeter players like Wade, LeBron, Tmac, Carter and others, in their prime, were without a doubt quicker and more athletic than Bryant? To say a prime Bryant (this version or any other) was the same level of athlete as those players is just beyond funny. Those are cream of the crop athletes, Bryant is just a step below, but an obvious step below. This is a good debate nonetheless, it helps people weed out the guys who really don't watch certain players (Kobe) on a regular basis (you).

[conleyorbust]

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How are these (very debatable and completely irrelevant) points germane to the fact that perimeter players like Wade, LeBron, Tmac, Carter and others, in their prime, were without a doubt quicker and more athletic than Bryant? To say a prime Bryant (this version or any other) was the same level of athlete as those players is just beyond funny. Those are cream of the crop athletes, Bryant is just a step below, but an obvious step below. This is a good debate nonetheless, it helps people weed out the guys who really don't watch certain players (Kobe) on a regular basis (you).

haha, everyone on these boards watches Kobe, Lebron, and Wade on a regular basis because they are the league's money guys.

Guess what? In TMac's athletic prime he was a better athlete and probably a better player than Kobe. Carter's athletic prime was unfortunately short but if he had followed the same development curve as Kobe, who knows what could have happened? Wade probably has a better first step but he doesn't jump higher than Kobe and he is quite a bit smaller.

Lebron is a superior athlete to Kobe. Yes.

[EHL]

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haha, everyone on these boards watches Kobe, Lebron, and Wade on a regular basis because they are the league's money guys.

Uh, no. You have no idea how often people watch Kobe, LeBron, or Wade. I know for a fact I watch Duncan and KG on more of a regular basis than I watch Wade or LeBron. So you're already wrong here.

Guess what? In TMac's athletic prime he was a better athlete and probably a better player than Kobe. Carter's athletic prime was unfortunately short but if he had followed the same development curve as Kobe, who knows what could have happened? Wade probably has a better first step but he doesn't jump higher than Kobe and he is quite a bit smaller.

I said athleticism, general physical abilities (not talent, but literal, physical abilities like vertical, lateral quickness, agility, etc.). Bryant simply is not and never was as quick/athletic as prime Carter, Tmac, LeBron, and Wade to name a few of the better players in the league. Not sure what your points were about Tmac and Carter there. Neither player has touched the career Bryant has had.

[eatyourchildren]

I think that for sure MJ was better athletically than Kobe. The bigger hands are a fact (something Phil Jackson and Kobe have both mentioned before).

The explosiveness is something that is palpably different between the two.

Phil Jackson has also said that MJ was stronger (and thus more beastly in the post).

And on the issue of hops, man, it's really not that close. MJ gets up quicker and higher. MJ as a Wizard was getting farther, higher, and quicker separation on his turnaround fadeaway than Kobe as a 25 year old. It's even on youtube, if you search for it.

If anything, the gap isn't as big as it is naturally because Kobe's worked on a lot of things that are under his control. For one, he has a great core due to Alex McKechnie's CoreX system, and that's contributed greatly to his in-air body control. Second, Kobe has I think better footwork than MJ does, something that also takes time and practice to get down.

Kobe is the ultimate example of precision and technique. MJ had the perfect combination of precision, technique, and otherworldly athleticism.

[eatyourchildren]

BTW Jordan23Forever:

I remember in a thread you called Kobe a 'Joke' for working the refs over so much and 'expecting' calls. I found this tidbit from the LATimes interesting, showing that Kobe is graceful towards the opposition most of the time, if not at the refs, and that's not bad at all. Far from being a 'Joke.'

During games, Bryant usually refrains from trash talk, opponents say. Instead, he directs most of his bickering at referees, something the opposition is happy about.

"You don't poke at a lion," the Timberwolves' Snyder said. "You just sit there and hopefully, he doesn't eat you up. Your best bet is to try to be quiet and play as hard as you can."

This is not to say we haven't seen the viciously competitive, trash-talking Kobe, but he's no MJ or Payton in that regard.