Wilt's Team vs Russell's Team, who wins in 7?

[JordansBulls]

I tried to make the teams about as even as possible. Which team would win in 7 games?


Wilt's Team

C Wilt Chamberlain/Shaquille O'neal
PF Tim Duncan/Kevin Garnett
SF Larry Bird/Dominique Wilkins
SG John Havlicek/Reggie Miller
PG Walt Frazier/Isiah Thomas



Russell's Team

C Moses Malone/Hakeem Olajuwon
PF Bill Russell/Karl Malone
SF Julius Erving/Scottie Pippen
SG Kobe Bryant/Joe Dumars
PG Magic Johnson/John Stockton

[carrottop12]

Russell's team by a landslide.

Better defensively, Johnson, Kobe and Malone running the offense.It wouldn't even be close.

[Phil Jackson]

The Team with Kobe Bryant would win.

[TheSheriff]

I'd take Wilts team.

[wigglestrue]

Clone people and then you'd really see.

Wilt's Team

C Wilt Chamberlain
PF Tim Duncan
SF Larry Bird
SG Michael Jordan
PG Magic Johnson

Russell's Team

C Bill Russell
PF Tim Duncan
SF Larry Bird
SG Michael Jordan
PG Magic Johnson

I think Wilt might actually take a clone v. clone series.
But I'm still going with Russell in 7, on a last second blocked shot.
That's the default answer for any series-winning scenario using him.

[a-rod]

I'd take Russell's Team, because of their interior and perimeter defense.

[JordansBulls]

The Team with Kobe Bryant would win.

Is that so? Will he win the title this year as well?

[tsherkin]

Wilt's Team

C Wilt Chamberlain/Shaquille O'neal
PF Tim Duncan/Kevin Garnett
SF Larry Bird/Dominique Wilkins
SG John Havlicek/Reggie Miller
PG Walt Frazier/Isiah Thomas

Russell's Team

C Moses Malone/Hakeem Olajuwon
PF Bill Russell/Karl Malone
SF Julius Erving/Scottie Pippen
SG Kobe Bryant/Joe Dumars
PG Magic Johnson/John Stockton

An interesting matchup. Let's post the opposing starters as a beginning:

Wilt Chamberlain/Moses Malone
Tim Duncan/Bill Russell
Larry Bird/Julius Erving
John Havlicek/Kobe Bryant
Walt Frazier/Magic Johnson

Interesting.

The first thing to note is that Wilt's team would enjoy an overwhelming advantage in frontcourt play. Moses Malone was a crappy passer and that is about the furthest thing from the truth when you're talking about Wilt, Bird and Duncan. Russell and Dr. J were fine passers but Moses was not. Of course, he still titled in '83 and nearly swept the playoffs, so take that with a grain of salt. Still, the advantage of having three exceedingly dangerous passing hubs out of the frontcourt should not be ignored, especially when ALL of them can score at least out to 15 feet.

The reverse of this is that the backcourt belongs to Russell's team; Kobe's a better scorer than Havlicek ever was, though Havlicek is comparable as a defender, rebounder and distributor... and Magic Johnson wipes the floor with Walt Frazier, no matter how good he was (and Frazier was great, for sure). At the same time, though, Frazier would pose a problem because there's no one on Russell's team who can really guard him.

That said, the backcourt defense on Russell's team is nasty... Dumars, Stockton and Kobe? And then you've got Pippen and Dr. J at the 3? That's scary stuff.

OK, so let's talk about how this might go down.

Moses at the 5 is a bad idea; he wouldn't do well against Wilt (even Lakers-era Wilt) and Wilt would defend him VERY well. Notably, JordansBulls hasn't really limited it to what Wilt we're discussing, so I'm assuming '67 Wilt for the best balance of D, passing and scoring.

Moses would be totally outclassed against any incarnation of Wilt and badly so. The worst Wilt ever was surpassed the best Moses ever managed, so that's bad for Russell's team.

Advantage: Wilt

Duncan/Russell.

Russell wouldn't be able to do too much against Duncan in terms of isolation defense but Duncan isn't a volume scorer and wouldn't be on this team, that's pretty clear; the O would run through Bird and Wilt, primarily. Russell's best bet would be to try and impact Havlicek and Frazier the most and contribute on the glass, because he was a dominant rebounder.

Still, Russell was a nasty high-post tool and a freak rebounder, so I think he wins out here, even if he's considerably worse offensively. Duncan wouldn't be scoring 20 ppg and Russell's better at the specialist rebounder/defender/passing hub game.

Advantage: Russell

Bird/Dr. J?

Historically speaking, Bird and Dr. J matched up well in the 80s, a 2-2 split in terms of postseason appearances. Individually though, it's less so. Bird was pretty nasty and I think he'd pretty much handle Dr. J and outperform him overall.

Advantage: Wilt

Havlicek/Kobe?

Kobe... I discussed this already but while these two are comparable in many areas, scoring acumen is not one of them. Kobe is the most skilled scorer the league has seen since Jordan last retired from Chicago and is one of the most dangerous streak shooters in NBA history on top of all of that.

Advantage: Russell

Frazier/Magic, as I said, is all Magic. Frazier could do a lot and he'd probably heckle Magic pretty well because of his no-handcheck defense and propensity for stealing the ball but Magic was generally able to deal with small guards on him reasonably well and Frazier wasn't as good a scorer as Magic and nothing like him as a playmaker even if you accommodate him for era suppression of assist totals and role in Holzman's offense.

Advantage: Russell

So right there, you've got a pretty strong argument for Russell's team on the basis of matchups.

Now we look at the bench:

Shaq/Dream
KG/Mailman
'Nique/Pippen
Reggie/Dumars
Zeke/Stockton

Dream's a better defender than Shaq but he also scored very, very well against Olajuwon in that Finals matchup, right in Dream's prime. Olajuwon didn't look super-hot against Shaq, he just took a lot more shots. So I don't think of this as anything but a wash.

Advantage: Neither

KG/Mailman is a tougher call. Garnett is the better rebounder and passer and a noticeably superior defender, though Karl Malone was a fine defender. Malone was a lot more dangerous a scoring weapon though and that complements Russell a lot better than does Garnett complement Duncan.

Advantage: Russell

'Nique/Pippen... well, Pippen's obviously a better defender and a comparable rebounder, as well as a much better passer (iconic point forward versus iconic volume scorer). The question is value relative to the starter, I suppose. 'Nique helps Wilt's team not skip a beat offensively; Bird was better, of course, but now 'Nique comes is as an athletic post-up forward who can sky all over the place and explode to the rim, a sort of change-of-pace compared to Bird's shooting and ground-bound post moves. Pippen replaces a lot of what Erving brings but he doesn't really change the look a lot; he's also a weaker scorer, so they actually lose something in that regard.

Advantage: Wilt

Reggie/Dumars... Reggie's 3pt shooting is very helpful to this team in terms of court spacing and while Dumars was a nasty defender, I don't think he helps in the same way. Reggie was a legit go-to scorer and made excellent use of screens that would pretty much ruin Dumars' man-on defense, so I think that Reggie would slip him often enough to score a lot for Wilt's team and overcome Dumars' contributions.

Advantage: Wilt

Isiah/Stockton is definitely Isiah. Not as good a defender, obviously, but Zeke was a WAY better scorer and Stockton was not especially good at containing him. From 86-87 through 94-95, Stockton went 8-7 against Detroit with Isiah playing... and was almost completely incapable of stopping Thomas, who averaged over 21 ppg on nearly 51% shooting (nearly 6% above his career average in FG%, with Stockton about the same BELOW his career average), which is just about his career-best mark (his three best years were 21.2, 21.3 and 22.9 ppg, 3-5 years prior to this timeframe).

Stockton was good and Isiah wasn't especially capable at stopping John either but Stockton was never a volume scorer and only twice put 19+ points on Thomas, while Zeke hit Stockton up for two different 40-point games (44 and 40). Isiah was definitely capable of working against Stockton because of his speed.

Advantage: Wilt

So, Russell would hold a slight advantage with the starters and Wilt with the bench, if you look only at individual matchups.

Then you have to consider the aforementioned frontcourt dominance of Wilt's team: more scoring potential and better passing.

Match that against the backcourt dominance of Russell's team.

At the end of the day, I'm inclined to root for Wilt's team.

Russell has a certain mystique about him in terms of the way his teams always seemed to find a way to win, but given the players we're discussing here, I don't think that would be the case, especially with Bird on his side.

[Reks]

wilts team
i just have to go with the wilt-timmy d 1-2 punch

[penbeast0]

With all due respect, Moses played a lot of 4 in his career (as a rookie he even played the 3). He played next to defensive centers such as Bill Paultz, Clemon Johnson, Gerald Govan, and Caldwell Jones. Russell on the other hand exclusively played the 5. So why put Russell at the 4 and Moses at the 5?!?

As for the inevitable height/weight/strength thing, Russell was taller, and heavier than Hakeem Olujawon (though nowhere near as offensively skilled) who no one seems to have a problem seeing as a 5. You could see the two together at the NBA at 50 celebrations and Russ was just a bit bigger and bulkier.

[tsherkin]

With all due respect, Moses played a lot of 4 in his career (as a rookie he even played the 3). He played next to defensive centers such as Bill Paultz, Clemon Johnson, Gerald Govan, and Caldwell Jones. Russell on the other hand exclusively played the 5. So why put Russell at the 4 and Moses at the 5?!?

Yeah, that confused me too, though I don't think it'd really change much. Moses was definitely a four when he was in the ABA and bulked up as his career progressed. Again though, the Wilt/Moses or Tim/Moses matchup doesn't really do much to help Russell's team... in fact, putting Russell at the 5 puts a significantly less effective player on Duncan and Wilt proved Russell wasn't a major impediment to his individual play over his career.

[kooldude]

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Is that so? Will he win the title this year as well?

you really got to let your Kobe hate-dar go and see that this guy is trolling. he's pretty funny though.

[writerman]

though I disagree with some of your conclusions.

I think you overrate Kobe a bit and underrate Havlicek significantly. If I had to pick any one player in the history of the game to defend Jordan and at expect that player to be able to at least halfway negate him, it would be Havlicek--if he couldn't do it, no-one could. He was big enough, strong enough, quick enough, and had the stamina to do it. And Jordan >> than Kobe.

I also disagree with your assumption that Magic--and remember, I think Magic > or at least more versatile than Jordan--would own Frazier. Frazier had hands (to quote a peer) "quicker than a lizard's tongue." And I think Magic would have very little chance to post him up with the killer help defense he would get from Wilt in the paint. Shoot over him from the perimeter? Maybe--but shooting was not the central part of Magic's game and not his best suit. I think Walt could hold his own, and would have a field day feeding Wilt and Bird, especially, and Reggie when he was in the game.

It also surprises me that so many here see Russell's team as better defensively. I couldn't disagree more. In Havlicek and Frazier you have two of the greatest perimeter defenders in the history of the game (Hondo defensively >> Kobe, Frazier defensively >> than Magic) and it amazes me even more how little respect they seem to have for Wilt's defense. When he focused his game on defense, Wilt was as good as Russell, maybe better.

And IMO Wilt alone tips the scales. There is absolutely no-one on Russ's team, including Russell, who is going to be able to do much against him. They would have to, as Russell's old Celtic teams used to do, let Wilt get his, make him work, and stop his teammates. I don't see Russell's team as capable of shutting down the players on Wilt's team as Wilt's might shut down those on Russell's.

Still what you say is at least credible, even if I disagree with some points.

[tsherkin]

though I disagree with some of your conclusions.

I think you overrate Kobe a bit and underrate Havlicek significantly. If I had to pick any one player in the history of the game to defend Jordan and at expect that player to be able to at least halfway negate him, it would be Havlicek--if he couldn't do it, no-one could. He was big enough, strong enough, quick enough, and had the stamina to do it. And Jordan >> than Kobe.

Hmm, I don't think so. I don't think it's a matter of stamina, I don't think Havlicek was athletic enough to handle Kobe in single coverage while worrying about what might be coming his way. You honestly think that Wilt's team wouldn't be sending Russell screen after Malone screen at Havlicek if he proved to be even remotely significant at defending Kobe?

But realistically, I don't think it's a big deal because I think that the Wilt team would win anyway, as I said.

I also disagree with your assumption that Magic--and remember, I think Magic > or at least more versatile than Jordan--would own Frazier. Frazier had hands (to quote a peer) "quicker than a lizard's tongue." And I think Magic would have very little chance to post him up with the killer help defense he would get from Wilt in the paint. Shoot over him from the perimeter? Maybe--but shooting was not the central part of Magic's game and not his best suit. I think Walt could hold his own, and would have a field day feeding Wilt and Bird, especially, and Reggie when he was in the game.

I don't particularly think that Magic posting up Frazier would be a big factor here either, I think he'd more like Magic in the first half of the 80s where he wasn't a huge offensive weapon because of his teammates. And don't kid yourself, if we're talking prime Magic, he had a filthy jumper from inside the arc (and a pretty good one from outside it eventually).

I do agree that Magic wouldn't be effective at guarding Frazier and mentioned as much but Magic's playmaking ability wouldn't be hindered in the slightest by Frazier's presence and it is through that ability that I believe he'd own Frazier.

It also surprises me that so many here see Russell's team as better defensively. I couldn't disagree more. In Havlicek and Frazier you have two of the greatest perimeter defenders in the history of the game (Hondo defensively >> Kobe, Frazier defensively >> than Magic) and it amazes me even more how little respect they seem to have for Wilt's defense. When he focused his game on defense, Wilt was as good as Russell, maybe better.

Wilt was better on D than Russell once he started to focus on it... he was taller, stronger, comparably athletic at worse (even old) and just nastier because he wore you out at the other end, too. Frazier's obviously a lot more dangerous defensively than Magic, though I wouldn't go so far as to say Hondo >> Kobe, since Kobe wouldn't be taking as many shots as he does now and he's been an elite defender for years.

Still what you say is at least credible, even if I disagree with some points.

You understand that I chose Wilt's team, right?

[Warspite]

With all due respect, Moses played a lot of 4 in his career (as a rookie he even played the 3). He played next to defensive centers such as Bill Paultz, Clemon Johnson, Gerald Govan, and Caldwell Jones. Russell on the other hand exclusively played the 5. So why put Russell at the 4 and Moses at the 5?!?

As for the inevitable height/weight/strength thing, Russell was taller, and heavier than Hakeem Olujawon (though nowhere near as offensively skilled) who no one seems to have a problem seeing as a 5. You could see the two together at the NBA at 50 celebrations and Russ was just a bit bigger and bulkier.

Whats realy interesting is watching the video of Greg Oden and Bill Russell. Russell is easily the bigger, broader and 1-2" taller. If Russell cant play Center Greg Oden might be a SF bust.

No doubt Russell would play Wilt and TD would play Mosses.

[writerman]

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You understand that I chose Wilt's team, right?

Yes--because if you put prime Wilt on a team, there's no-one who could handle him--except you might say a prime Shaq at his very very best, and even if you believe that (I don't) the most you could hope for would be to make him work hard to get his like Russell did, making his teammates beat you.

[5DOM]

The Team with Kobe Bryant would win.

[JordansBulls]

though I disagree with some of your conclusions.

I think you overrate Kobe a bit and underrate Havlicek significantly. If I had to pick any one player in the history of the game to defend Jordan and at expect that player to be able to at least halfway negate him, it would be Havlicek--if he couldn't do it, no-one could. He was big enough, strong enough, quick enough, and had the stamina to do it. And Jordan >> than Kobe.

I also disagree with your assumption that Magic--and remember, I think Magic > or at least more versatile than Jordan--would own Frazier. Frazier had hands (to quote a peer) "quicker than a lizard's tongue." And I think Magic would have very little chance to post him up with the killer help defense he would get from Wilt in the paint. Shoot over him from the perimeter? Maybe--but shooting was not the central part of Magic's game and not his best suit. I think Walt could hold his own, and would have a field day feeding Wilt and Bird, especially, and Reggie when he was in the game.

It also surprises me that so many here see Russell's team as better defensively. I couldn't disagree more. In Havlicek and Frazier you have two of the greatest perimeter defenders in the history of the game (Hondo defensively >> Kobe, Frazier defensively >> than Magic) and it amazes me even more how little respect they seem to have for Wilt's defense. When he focused his game on defense, Wilt was as good as Russell, maybe better.

And IMO Wilt alone tips the scales. There is absolutely no-one on Russ's team, including Russell, who is going to be able to do much against him. They would have to, as Russell's old Celtic teams used to do, let Wilt get his, make him work, and stop his teammates. I don't see Russell's team as capable of shutting down the players on Wilt's team as Wilt's might shut down those on Russell's.

Still what you say is at least credible, even if I disagree with some points.

Why wouldn't Russell be able to hold Wilt when he held him to 11.7 ppg in the 1969 finals?

[writerman]

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Why wouldn't Russell be able to hold Wilt when he held him to 11.7 ppg in the 1969 finals?

Russell never "handled" Wilt, which he freely admitted. Wilt averaged 26 points and 28 rebounds against Russell, and set the single game NBA record of 55 boards against him.

http://sportscommentary.suite101.com/ar ... ports_myth

"If [the referee] is calling [the game] loose then everyone gets away with more. So, you have to handle your own man accordingly, unless it's Wilt Chamberlain. Him, you just don't handle. He's too strong. The best you can do is make him work hard."
-- Bill Russell, Go up For Glory p.100

Analysis from "A Tribute to Wilt Chamberlain"

Wilt vs. Michael Jordan: Once more, Wilt is simply more dominating. While Jordan fans are quick to point out Wilt's flaw (free throws), I can equally point out that Jordan was not that great of a 3 point shooter, unless the line is moved in (the league's attempt to help inferior players score more).

Jordan averaged 1 asst/game more than Wilt during his career, and this is while he has been enjoying the luxury of looser rules governing assists. Had the rulebook been the same back then as it now, governing assists, this number would be even.

Jordan's took more shots than Wilt, yet both averaged 30.1 ppg during their careers. As far as who was the better scorer, there is no question: During Wilt's first 7 years, he scored like no man in history. Jordan never had a 70+ point game. Wilt had 4. Jordan never averaged 38+ ppg for a season. Wilt did it 3 times. I've seen Jordan make ridiculous claims that Wilt was another Shaq, yet Jordan flaunts his ignorance. Wilt came into the league with a jump shot and used the finger-roll and fade-away as go-to moves, whereas Shaq has never developed these shots and spent years with a very raw offensive game made up of dunks. Wilt was stronger than Shaq, a better leaper, and far more schooled in the fundamentals. Furthermore, Cavs GM Wayne Embry disagrees with Jordan. He says Wilt would have no problems against today's defenses. Nearly every rules change has been made to help the defense. Against these rules, Wilt would clearly dominate.

Jordan was also much more selfish. When Wilt's coaches asked him to score, he did. When they asked him to sacrificed his scoring titles, he did. Jordan fought any attempt to cut back his shot attempts. Read about Jordan's spats with Phil Jackson. Read about how he put down Tex Winter and the triangle! Even his own teammate Horace Grant said that Jordan cared more about his points than the team. If Wilt had that selfish attitude, there is no telling how many more points he would have. Also, if you take Wilt's scoring through the same number of career games, his scoring average is higher.

Wilt is a vastly superior rebounder, and while Jordan fans will point out that "Wilt should have more, since he is a center", I counter that Jordan should have a lot more assists, since he is a guard, but the numbers do not support him. Wilt is one of the greatest passers ever at center, but Jordan isn't as dominating at his position with respect to rebounds (Oscar and Magic, for instance, are both better rebounders). And while Jordan does have more 1st team all defensive selections, keep in mind that #1) the team wasn't created until Wilt's 10th year in the league and #2) Only one center is selected vs. 2 guards. If Jordan were the greatest defensive guard ever, there would be a point, but as long as Walt Frazier is remembered, Jordan could never be better than #2.

Jordan has also received the benefit of rules changes that have been implemented to help offensive players, such as well-defined rules concerning zones, rules against hand checking, and flagrant fouls. He's been spoiled by the luxuries given to the modern player, such as chartered planes, first class hotels, superior athletic shoes, and modern sports medicine (and he still hasn't approached Wilt's minutes per game!). Jordan has benefited from the joke that has become NBA officiating, in which superstars receive preferential treatment, and Jordan has probably received more than any player in history. The steps and the fouls he gets away with are ridiculous!

Consider also that Jordan benefited from the dilution of talent in the 1990s that came from expansion, giving him inferior talent to play against, compared to the 1980s. It is no coincidence that Jordan's teammate, Dennis Rodman, said that the 1996 Bulls could not have won 70 games playing against 1980s teams. While Jordan has many accomplishments, they cannot compare to Wilt's, and while the press and the Jordan radicals try to rationalize Wilt's numbers, as you can see, it's equally easy to rationalize Jordan's, and when it comes down to it, Wilt is still the most dominating player in history, and Jordan has never came close to threatening Wilt's 100 point game or 50.4 PPG average, and scoring is supposed to be Jordan's specialty, let alone Wilt's 8.6 APG in a season, or his rebounding numbers, or his 72.7% field goal percentage.

Finally, consider each player's ability to carry a team. Wilt came into the league and carried a bad team to immediate contention. He took the 1962 Warriors, not a great team, to the 7th game of the conference finals, where they lost by 2 points on a controversial call, to the champion Celtics. Jordan, on the other hand, came into the league and joined a losing team and after 3 years, they were STILL a losing team. He was 1-9 in the playoffs and posted 3 consecutive losing seasons. The truth is, Jordan played 5 seasons without Scottie Pippen and in each of those 5 seasons, he could not win more games than he lost, and in the final 2 years, he failed to get Washington to the playoffs. Yes, he was older than Wilt when Wilt retired, but Wilt played MANY more minutes, because Jordan retired 3 times. The fact is, without great teammates, Jordan was a loser. Wilt, on the other hand, could carry a poor team much farther than Jordan, showing just how much more dominant he was.

[tsherkin]

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Yes--because if you put prime Wilt on a team, there's no-one who could handle him--except you might say a prime Shaq at his very very best, and even if you believe that (I don't) the most you could hope for would be to make him work hard to get his like Russell did, making his teammates beat you.

I'm just making sure you are aware that I chose Wilt's team, lol. And prime Shaq would be ON prime Wilt's team.