Celtics defensive system, what's happening?

[Undrafted Rook]

Hi,

Unfortunately haven't seen that many Celtic games this season, but I've definately heard about the defensive turnaround. Now I I know that a big part of that has been credited to coach Thibodieau, and the infusion of talent being the other one I guess.

I'm interested about the system, and I was wondering could some of you explain some of the concepts of your defense? Does it have any specific characteristics, something you don't usually see?

Thanks.

[dwestside]

Flawless rotations, textbook defense of the pick and roll, and Kevin Garnett effectively peer pressuring the entire team into doing it all the time, every time.

[alwayslovetheceltics]

1. KG
2. KG
3. Execution

thibodeau has done his job but i don't think he has revamped this system. it more that, the KG, and this veteran team, are executing the fundamentals, and the basic system that was already in place.

as dwest noted- flawless rotations, good team defense...

[Jammer]

Kevin Garnett, who led the NBA in NET PER the past 4 seasons, is 2nd in NET PER this season, at +15.3, behind Lebron James. So, Kevin is snuffing out his competition. On average, Garnett's man shoots .13 less than his normal shooting percent. So, someone who normally shoots .48 shoots .35 against KG. Overall, the other Celtics who play power forward (James Posey & Leon Powe) have the team the 2nd best ranked in the league in NET PER. So, to a large extent, it's the individual excellence of the players functioning in a team system.

Paul Pierce is busting his ass like he never has before on defense, or, at least it is now being noticed. Pierce is 13th in the NBA in NET PER, and the Celtics small forward position (James Posey) is the 2nd Best NET PER in the NBA. Again, like Power Forward, it is largely the individual excellence of Pierce and Posey working within the team system.

Ray Allen, who was not known for defense, is busting his ass also. He is 31st in the NBA in NET PER, and with Tony Allen (backup SG), they have given the Celtics the 3rd best NET PER for any combo in the NBA. Tony is the Celtics best perimeter defender, by the way. Again, a combination of individual excellence, attitude, effort, and working within the team concept in terms of doing their job. Having great athletisim, good size, quickness and smarts doesn't hurt, either.

Perk understands his role at Center, and when tag teamed with 10 minutes of Garnett, plus PJ Brown and Glen Davis, have the Celtics at 10th in NET PER in the NBA. The Celtics have a lot of fouls to give here, and can afford to be physical.

Rajon Rondo is extremely quick, with huge hands, feet, athleticism, and a high basketball IQ. For someone who turned 22 6 weeks ago, he will get a lot better, but he's really good now. With Eddie House's quick hands and smarts, they have the 13th best NET PER in the NBA. Sam Cassell will hurt that, as Sam is here mainly as a backup ball handler, 2nd unit scorer if better players are not hitting, and insurance guard in case Rondo, House, Ray Allen or Tony Allen are injured.

So, overall, it's the individual talents of the 12 players on the active roster (I'd say minus Sam Cassell), plus their commitment, dedication, and willingness to execute.

I don't think that the coaching is it so much as getting everyone on the same page committed to putting forth maximum effort for all the time that they are on the court. This was mainly instilled by Kevin Garnett's goals for the team, and his ability to communicate those goals. Management went out and got Tom Thibadeau as Associate Head Coach, who is known as a defensive specialist, but the reason that the Celtics are averaging +10.3 ppg over their opposition, and holding opponents to around 90 points per 100 possessions, more has to do with their own talent and motivation than coaching the defense.

Doc, on the other hand, has done a splendid, magnificent job with his player rotations this season. I'd give him an A+ for getting what he can out of this team. Doc Rivers is my Coach of the Year.

If we could vote for Chris Paul as Coach of the Year, I would, but since we can't, to me, it's Doc Rivers. But individually, KG and Chris Paul I think have had the greatest impact on their teammates this season. Since the Celtics have gone from 24 wins to probably 64 or more, I again have to say Doc Rivers deserves honoring, with KG Defensive Player of the Year, Rajon Rondo Most Improved Player, and KG Most Valuable Player.

[Undrafted Rook]

Thanks guys.

I was also hoping to dig a little deeper, maybe learn about the X's and O's. Like do you force baseline or middle? Is the help defense active to stop penetration or do you rely on the shotblocker? Do you overplay on the passing lanes? Do you allow the entry pass or front/partially front the post? Do you look for constant ball pressure?

Just hoping to find some pointers so I know what to look for next time I watch a Celtics game...

Edit.

Good points about the the talent level, but I wonder if those stats are a reason or just a result. As an example, does Allen's net per now look good because he is playing good defense, or because he is on a good defensive team. That is a simplified example of course. It comes down to the question which one is more important defensive talent or the defensive system? I believe that a team with top notch defensive talent with average coaching will look good, but a team with a great system and coaching and average talent will look elite.

[ParticleMan]

as others have said, the system is pretty much the same one we've always had under Doc. the difference is the players.

i'm no expert, but it seems like the main thing the C's do better than anyone is shut down penetration lanes. they do this by rolling the team D to the ball, then recovering quickly when the ball is swung back around. the idea is basically to force teams to shoot jumpers by shutting down penetration, and then running at jump shooters. that's why we consistently outscore people in the paint by a large margin. i really don't think it's that different than what a lot of teams do, it's just the C's are extremely precise in each person's responsibilities on their rotations. it's impressive to watch, it really is.

[threrf23]

Allen's defensive +/- is the worst on the team outside of Posey, whose is about as bad. But his counterpart PER is still real low, and a bit lower than Perkin's/Rondo's...he's been respectable defensively and plays with complementary defenders persay. Anyways, we got KG, we got Thibodeau, and while not all of our guys are the greatest defenders, they are almost all, at least decent defenders (none are liabilities, and all seem to have the right attitude).

We've got the parts, and Thibodeau usually knows what to do with them for any given game. Its really as simple as that.

[Jammer]

Thanks guys.

I was also hoping to dig a little deeper, maybe learn about the X's and O's. Like do you force baseline or middle?

Requires execution of a confidentiality agreement and non-disclosure agreement, with penalties for revealing contents to Playoff Teams.
...

I believe that a team with top notch defensive talent with average coaching will look good, but a team with a great system and coaching and average talent will look elite.

Ouch. I think that you've just insulted the Celtics.

I realize that it's your opinion, but ouch.

[Undrafted Rook]

Thanks guys.

I was also hoping to dig a little deeper, maybe learn about the X's and O's. Like do you force baseline or middle?

Requires execution of a confidentiality agreement and non-disclosure agreement, with penalties for revealing contents to Playoff Teams.
...

I believe that a team with top notch defensive talent with average coaching will look good, but a team with a great system and coaching and average talent will look elite.

Ouch. I think that you've just insulted the Celtics.

I realize that it's your opinion, but ouch.

Sorry Jammer, but I was being purely hypothetical... And Celtics are not elite defensively?

We've got the parts, and Thibodeau usually knows what to do with them for any given game. Its really as simple as that.

Ok, but what does he do with them, that's what I'm looking for in this thread...

[sully00]

The system is essentially the same as what they have been running. What they said they did was simplify the rotations, a lot more individual responsibilities and less switching, which is what has lead to the clean rotations. The biggest thing I see with the team is that they have found away to run guys off the 3 pt line and pack the lane. This is mostly about Perk and KG but it is the same when they aren't back there. Boston rarely gives up uncontested 3's or clear paths to the hoop which is quite impressive after years of watching rotating defenses routinely give up both.

[Undrafted Rook]

The system is essentially the same as what they have been running. What they said they did was simplify the rotations, a lot more individual responsibilities and less switching, which is what has lead to the clean rotations. The biggest thing I see with the team is that they have found away to run guys off the 3 pt line and pack the lane. This is mostly about Perk and KG but it is the same when they aren't back there. Boston rarely gives up uncontested 3's or clear paths to the hoop which is quite impressive after years of watching rotating defenses routinely give up both.

Ok. When players rotate to a shooter do they look to heavily contest the shot? (Jumping, but being vulnerable to a pumpfake) Or just close out with a hand up?

[sully00]

As far as which way the defense looks to send to help, the C's look to funnel things into the lane, generally we look to send middle which can make our PGs look pretty bad when you have a great finisher. This tends to drive Tommy a little nuts.

But the soft spot in the scheme is the mid range game. They can adjust it but then it opens up the 3pt line, you will see this against Rip and Caron Butler.

[sully00]

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Ok. When players rotate to a shooter do they look to heavily contest the shot? (Jumping, but being vulnerable to a pumpfake) Or just close out with a hand up?

Different guys play it differently. Pierce and Posey are the key to running guys off the line, they both have the length and size to contest the shot with out leaving the floor and at the same time make it difficult for the offensive player to put on the floor. If it is Ray or Tony they end up having to leave their feet and are susceptible to giving the foul. One thing that doesn't occur, in contrast to the past is that they don't get killed on the ball reverse. I am watching the Rockets right now who essentially do the same thing and it is basically combonation of discipline as far as spacing and responsibility as well as constant effort.

[Friar Dan]

What I see with this team (and a lot of good defenseive teams), are some basic principles to their team defense, but flexibility in game planning in other aspects. Examples:
Basic Principles
- Big man defender "shows" to defend the pick n' roll (plays up high to stop penetration, then hustles back to his man)
- Perimeter guys tend to funnel to the lane (as mentioned before) - they've always done this under Doc, but to be effective it requires your bigs/shotblockers to work in tandem to rotate to the ball, and the weakside defender to rotate to the man of the big that just rotated to the ball - Perk & Garnett have this pretty much down; Perk & Jefferson were BAD at it last year - when interior rotations are bad, your defense looks silly and gives up dunks and layups all game

Gameplan
- The concept of contesting 3's - this will depend on the opponent; a team like TOR that shoots well will get stickier defense at the 3-line, while a poor shooting team (Knicks?) will get defense that sags to the lane

[RoyHobbs]

Here's a great interview with Tom Thibodeau, where he explains some of the defense. Link.

It's still the same type of defense that we've always played. Our big thing is to get back, get set, apply hard ball pressure, keep the ball out of the paint, challenge shots and then finish your defense with the rebound. Once we do those things, we want to also use our instincts and [Rajon] Rondo's terrific at reading the ball and getting into passing lanes and that sort of thing, so we want to take advantage of those skills. And of course Garnett is terrific at extending the defense, so we move up the floor with him. I think you combine all those things and the fact that our three top players--Kevin, Paul [Pierce] and Ray are committed to defense, so each and every day they practice hard. They don't take any practices off...a guy like [James] Posey [either], all those guys. Their commitment--and it started from day one--is really what set the tone for us.

[Man_Up]

1. Tom Thibideau - Not coincidence he's been on several top defensive teams.
2. The Veterans - Know how to execute the game plan.
3. KG - The difference between a good defensive team and a great one.

I think we play the same type of Team Defense as San Antonio, but more aggressive. We try to deny stars the ball, chase shooters off the line, and send slashers toward help(KG), and we try not to switch to avoid match-up problems.

[DorfonCeltics]

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Ok. When players rotate to a shooter do they look to heavily contest the shot? (Jumping, but being vulnerable to a pumpfake) Or just close out with a hand up?

Honestly, the C's ratations have been so crisp that by the time the opponenet gets to the point of shooting a slightly open shot (with someone running at them of course) the shot clock is already down to 2,3,4 seconds. Rarely does a player have the time to pump fake and still get a clean shot off before the clock expires. Nearly every shot is contested too. I can only remember 4 or 5 times this season where one of our players really bit on a pump fake when closing out on a shot from distance. Usually that's proceeded by the opposing player shooting 3 foul shots, cough cough, Tony Allen.

[UGA Hayes]

I think it really has been a perfect storm of reasons from a personnel standpoint. KG has obviously been the main reason, but I think nationally he has overshadowed the fact that we legitimately had 2 up and coming potentially great defenders in Rondo and Perk.

Perk had some pretty impressive all around performances before KG but has always gotten hurt.

Rondo has probably gotten more pub of the two, but you watch and think as good as he is defending I'm not sure he is defending anywhere near his max potential.


Paul has improved his effort level which really helps since his bulk makes him impossible to post up and he is generally wuicker than most threes.

You throw in that Posey and Allen are good to great defendera, Davis is an ususually good post defender against the Rasheed types, and Powe has become much better at making his defensive rotations (though he still makes mistakes) and you realize the wholsale improvements we have made.