All things About Gil's Return (edited thread title)

[CaPtaiN eYeSaNo]

I think some folks are forgetting what watching this franchise was like before Agent 0 came to town...

[DallasShalDune]

I'm f*cking pumped he's back, I don't know about the rest of you all. We are not a worse team with him in. If Antawn is out awhile, its not Gilbert's fault. If Stevenson is out awhile, it isn't Gilbert's fault. The fact we lost that game wasn't Gilbert's fault either. Everyone has been bitching on how AD's been a bad defender of late, because he's playing hurt. It didn't change anything that Gilbert was in for that last play.

And I agree with Gil_Kills. Pre Gilbert, this team was bad. Even Michael GREATEST PLAYER OF ALL TIME couldn't resurect this franchise. It took Gilbert Arenas and Antawn Jamison to do that.

[nate33]

I think some folks are forgetting what watching this franchise was like before Agent 0 came to town...

Just to play devil's advocate:

We have seen exactly what this franchise looks like without Agent 0. We've played 66 games without him. Our record? 35-31

And if you ignore the games with Butler hurt, our record is 27-18.

A few months ago, I looked at our record with and without Arenas over the past 4 years. Believe it or not, our winning percentage is about the same with or without him. (I can't remember the actual numbers.)

[fishercob]

-= original quote snipped =-


Just to play devil's advocate:

We have seen exactly what this franchise looks like without Agent 0. We've played 66 games without him. Our record? 35-31

And if you ignore the games with Butler hurt, our record is 27-18.

A few months ago, I looked at our record with and without Arenas over the past 4 years. Believe it or not, our winning percentage is about the same with or without him. (I can't remember the actual numbers.)

To be fair, ignoring games with Butler hurt is almost like ignoring games with Larry Hughes at this point.

[nate33]

This is true.

[FreeBalling]

-= original quote snipped =-


Just to play devil's advocate:

We have seen exactly what this franchise looks like without Agent 0. We've played 66 games without him. Our record? 35-31

And if you ignore the games with Butler hurt, our record is 27-18.

A few months ago, I looked at our record with and without Arenas over the past 4 years. Believe it or not, our winning percentage is about the same with or without him. (I can't remember the actual numbers.)

I'm 100% for Gilbert playing in DC, I ask all of you, how many years would we have to wait for the next elite player to play in Washington if Gil left town?

Some of the posts are very ungrateful. ( I'm not talk about you Nate.)

[hands11]

-= original quote snipped =-



Gilbertology or not; he played well. I don't know what you are complaining about. If you don't care for Gilbertology, then don't read anything about the Wizards and and just watch the game.

Gilbertology is what I'm complaining about. That is what I wrote and that is what you commented on. What do you mean you don't know what I'm complaining about.

I'm complaining that I'm sick of it. Just play ball and act like a professional.

Even DS commented on it. I get the feeling more and more of his teammates are tired of it also. He acts like an overgrown child saying look at me, look at me.

I think the rest of the team just wanted to get down to balling. Look how many have commented on GA needing to make a grant entrance. That's just GA. We don't pay any attention to that stuff.

It's like he planned it for the highlight clips. News at 7 LOL.

[TheRevTy]

Hi there, outside observer who follows the Wizards quite a bit.

It seems to me that the team has moved on from Gilbert. In his absence, they established a sort of no-nonsense mentality. Gilbert seems to be about having fun on the court and proving doubters wrong. Caron seems more about intensity, hard work, and flying under the radar.

As I observe, I have to wonder what each party is thinking. Gilbert as a player is obviously a huge asset. Gilbert as a personality can be a huge asset on the right team. I wonder if this is still the right team.

You guys were wildly successful in Arenas' absence (at least far more than I expected). It seemed you were developing a Pistons or Spurs type mentality, only you hadn't developed the stellar defense yet. Those two teams are the worst teams Gilbert could play on in the NBA.

But then again, I could be completely wrong. If I am, disregard this post.

Not meaning to start a war, just wanted to give some outsider input. Thanks.

[dobrojim]

I would NOT say we were WILDLY successful in Gil's absence.
We kept our collective heads above water in spite of missing
Caron and AD as well for varying periods of time.

I think we'd all mostly agree that Gil is a quirky fun loving
guy. The team has been fairly business like in his absence.
But that doesn't mean he won't or couldn't be the missing
piece for us to really make some noise. We've hung tough
against a number of quality teams. But there have also been
nights when we really could have used a guy like Gil who can
single-handedly take over a game. Sometimes Caron and/or
AJ can be that guy. But there is always the possibility of Gil
being that guy. Anytime vs any team. That's the potential difference.

With Gil we could go out in the first round meekly once again,
or make it to the ECF or even out of the east. No shockers either
way.

Without Gil it would be a shocker to win more than one series
and it would be something of an upset to even win one.

[TheRevTy]

I see what you're saying, Gilbert does add a huge extra oomph. I still wonder if your best bet isn't to focus on Caron. Kid can play. Similar to Hedo Turkoglu on the Magic (my team), if given his chance, I think he'll shine. He has been inconsistent, but that is to be expected as he puts on his big-boy shoes, so to speak. Surround him with business-like defensive players, make him the man, and you are still a very dangerous team.

Like I said, Gilbert is an amazing asset to any team as a player. However, like I said, his personality makes him the kind of player that thrives in certain setting while being a distraction in others. I hope, for Washington's sake, and for the sake of what could be a great division rivalry, he still molds with the Wizards. I just don't know.

Certainly could make for an interesting summer and next couple of years. Like I said, I hope you guys return to the way you were playing before he got injured last year. I would hate to see another fun team to watch loose that extra spice (Phoenix).

[cavsfan_osiris]

Out of sight out of mind huh? GA is an elite guard in the NBA, a commodity that's not easy to acquire. Losing Agent Zero would be a step backwards for the Wizards.

[Kanyewest]

-= original quote snipped =-



Gilbertology is what I'm complaining about. That is what I wrote and that is what you commented on. What do you mean you don't know what I'm complaining about.

I'm complaining that I'm sick of it. Just play ball and act like a professional.

Even DS commented on it. I get the feeling more and more of his teammates are tired of it also. He acts like an overgrown child saying look at me, look at me.

I think the rest of the team just wanted to get down to balling. Look how many have commented on GA needing to make a grant entrance. That's just GA. We don't pay any attention to that stuff.

It's like he planned it for the highlight clips. News at 7 LOL.

Let me rephrase that, I don't know WHY you are complaining. If he is playing well, then I don't understand WHY it is such a big deal. Surely, Gilbertology is a philosophy that is talked on about ad naseum. But I have to admit that it is interesting how Gilbert is one of the most successful players in the league despite the bar being set so low throughout his whole career from high school to the pros. If Gilbert keeps balling like his is for the Wizard's franchise, their future looks bright. That is why it Gilbert is interesting. Not because he is quirky but because he is quirky AND an elite player.

[Kanyewest]

Hi there, outside observer who follows the Wizards quite a bit.

It seems to me that the team has moved on from Gilbert. In his absence, they established a sort of no-nonsense mentality. Gilbert seems to be about having fun on the court and proving doubters wrong. Caron seems more about intensity, hard work, and flying under the radar.

As I observe, I have to wonder what each party is thinking. Gilbert as a player is obviously a huge asset. Gilbert as a personality can be a huge asset on the right team. I wonder if this is still the right team.

You guys were wildly successful in Arenas' absence (at least far more than I expected). It seemed you were developing a Pistons or Spurs type mentality, only you hadn't developed the stellar defense yet. Those two teams are the worst teams Gilbert could play on in the NBA.

But then again, I could be completely wrong. If I am, disregard this post.

Not meaning to start a war, just wanted to give some outsider input. Thanks.

Just had to put into the equation that Gilbert himself is a hard worker too. The guy is a gym rat. And the pro about Caron, as it seems is he thrives playing off of Gilbert. I think it would be wise to build around both.

The Wizards success without Gilbert is surprising. But I would not say that the Wizards are a better team without Gilbert Arenas. You have to take into account the Wizards play in a weaker Eastern Conference and are not a playoff team. For instance, Miami is a walkover compared to last year and that's 4 easy wins right there. With Arenas, it was certainly possible that the Wizards could surpass 50 wins. And since the NBA is a stars league, Gilbert Arenas will get respect from officials especially in the postseason.

[dandridge 10]

Hi there, outside observer who follows the Wizards quite a bit.

It seems to me that the team has moved on from Gilbert. In his absence, they established a sort of no-nonsense mentality. Gilbert seems to be about having fun on the court and proving doubters wrong. Caron seems more about intensity, hard work, and flying under the radar.

As I observe, I have to wonder what each party is thinking. Gilbert as a player is obviously a huge asset. Gilbert as a personality can be a huge asset on the right team. I wonder if this is still the right team.

You guys were wildly successful in Arenas' absence (at least far more than I expected). It seemed you were developing a Pistons or Spurs type mentality, only you hadn't developed the stellar defense yet. Those two teams are the worst teams Gilbert could play on in the NBA.

But then again, I could be completely wrong. If I am, disregard this post.

Not meaning to start a war, just wanted to give some outsider input. Thanks.

I think you bring up some very valid points, but I would say it a little different way. I think there is no doubt that the current Wizards team with Arenas is better than the team without. Arenas is a phenomenal talent that has the ability to make clutch shots and that frankly wins games in the NBA. However, I think a valid question would be: could we win a Championship with Gilbert as our best player? If you look at the championship teams over the history of the NBA, the best players on those teams were absolute "killers"...Jordan, Kobe, Duncan, Hakeem, Bird are just some examples. The only thing that mattered to them was winning, and they would do anything it took on both ends of the court (offense and defense) to achieve that. When they stepped on the court, they just wanted to kill the opposing team; there was no compassion, no caring, nothing but step on the opposing teams throat and send them home. I just don't see that same quality in Gilbert's make-up, at least right now. For Gil, sometimes I think he sees this game more as "entertainment" as opposed to something that is "life or death" (figuritively speaking). You wouldn't see the "killer" players I referenced above visit opposing players in the locker room after a loss in the playoffs and kid around (like Gilbert did during the series with Cavs two years ago), or come in after five minutes in the first quarter in his first game back to make "a grand appearance.", or talk about how he is going to drop 50 points on so and so before a game. They didn't care about that crap...they cared only about winning.

So, I guess what I am saying is that I am happy that Gil is back because I do think he makes us a better team. However, I think the jury is still out on whether Arenas can lead us to the promised land. In order for him to do so, I think he needs to grow up, get that killer instinct, and think about doing whatever it takes to win (including playing better defense) than about entertaining the public. I happen to enjoy Gilbert's quirky personality, but I'd enjoy much more a championship in D.C.

[nate33]

Hi there, outside observer who follows the Wizards quite a bit.

It seems to me that the team has moved on from Gilbert. In his absence, they established a sort of no-nonsense mentality. Gilbert seems to be about having fun on the court and proving doubters wrong. Caron seems more about intensity, hard work, and flying under the radar.

As I observe, I have to wonder what each party is thinking. Gilbert as a player is obviously a huge asset. Gilbert as a personality can be a huge asset on the right team. I wonder if this is still the right team.

You guys were wildly successful in Arenas' absence (at least far more than I expected). It seemed you were developing a Pistons or Spurs type mentality, only you hadn't developed the stellar defense yet. Those two teams are the worst teams Gilbert could play on in the NBA.

But then again, I could be completely wrong. If I am, disregard this post.

Not meaning to start a war, just wanted to give some outsider input. Thanks.

Classy post, TheRevTy. You make some good points about the team's personality with and without Arenas.

Arenas has stated on multiple occasions that he doesn't consider himself a "leader". He's perfectly content letting Jamison, Daniels and Butler be the team leaders in the locker room. Arenas just wants to play. And as Kanyewest mentioned, Arenas is a freakishly hard worker. It's not like he distracts the team by being lazy, or going out to party all the time, or anything like that.

The solution is for Jamison and Butler to continue leading the team in its "no nonsense" approach, and for Arenas to fit in. I do agree with you that Arenas' "prove the doubters wrong" approach is a little too self-centered and that he's going to need to mature a bit. I just don't think he has that long of a road to travel. He's already a very hard worker and an all-around good guy who is well-liked by the team.

I have to admit that I was a bit disappointed that he felt such an overwhelming desire to pull off a Willis Reed style grand entrance in the Milwaukee game. I think that was a bit of a distraction and it may have contributed to the loss. But I'll give Arenas the benefit of the doubt for a while. Like Haywood said, Arenas had his moment, now let's get back to business. Arenas looked great last night in the Miami game (admittedly, not a difficult thing to do).

[hands11]

-= original quote snipped =-



I think you bring up some very valid points, but I would say it a little different way. I think there is no doubt that the current Wizards team with Arenas is better than the team without. Arenas is a phenomenal talent that has the ability to make clutch shots and that frankly wins games in the NBA. However, I think a valid question would be: could we win a Championship with Gilbert as our best player? If you look at the championship teams over the history of the NBA, the best players on those teams were absolute "killers"...Jordan, Kobe, Duncan, Hakeem, Bird are just some examples. The only thing that mattered to them was winning, and they would do anything it took on both ends of the court (offense and defense) to achieve that. When they stepped on the court, they just wanted to kill the opposing team; there was no compassion, no caring, nothing but step on the opposing teams throat and send them home. I just don't see that same quality in Gilbert's make-up, at least right now. For Gil, sometimes I think he sees this game more as "entertainment" as opposed to something that is "life or death" (figuritively speaking). You wouldn't see the "killer" players I referenced above visit opposing players in the locker room after a loss in the playoffs and kid around (like Gilbert did during the series with Cavs two years ago), or come in after five minutes in the first quarter in his first game back to make "a grand appearance.", or talk about how he is going to drop 50 points on so and so before a game. They didn't care about that crap...they cared only about winning.

So, I guess what I am saying is that I am happy that Gil is back because I do think he makes us a better team. However, I think the jury is still out on whether Arenas can lead us to the promised land. In order for him to do so, I think he needs to grow up, get that killer instinct, and think about doing whatever it takes to win (including playing better defense) than about entertaining the public. I happen to enjoy Gilbert's quirky personality, but I'd enjoy much more a championship in D.C.

Gibertology. This is what I have been talking about and this is one reason I say this is CBs team.

CB is the one who holds all those killer qualities you described.

[TheRevTy]

I 100% agree that you CURRENTLY are not a better team sans Gilbert. However, I am merely suggesting that, given a whole year of being THE guy, and surrounding him with some solid defensive players, Caron could be just as effective as Gilbert as far as bringing wins to Washington.

I am just interested to see what happens this summer, if Gilbert really does opt out. Do the Wizards commit to making it work, even though there has been indication that he and the team are moving in separate directions? Does Gilbert show frustration in Washington's lack of exuberance for his return? Quite the interesting scenario you guys have. Funny thing is, you win either way in my mind.

I should also mention that I would LOVE to se Arenas join the Magic, but who wouldn't want him on their team (except maybe the Spurs or Pistons). I also know the chances of Gilbert Arenas joining Dwight Howard are about as slim as Carrot Top winning an Academy Award. (Did you know he's 43?! Carrot Top, not Dwight Howard.)

[queridiculo]

Sorry, but I don't buy that Caron can be just as effective with a team built around him. Caron is a hard hard worker and there are few players in the league that can match his intensity.

That said, Caron doesn't possess the elite athleticism that the top players in the league use to break down defenders on a regular basis. To his credit, he's added a somewhat reliable three point shot to his arsenal but even with that his game doesn't have nearly the range as Gilberts does.

People that don't watch this team on a regular basis do not have an appreciation for just how hard Arenas is to guard when his game is on. His first step is absolutely devestating and the range of his game extends almost to half court. Arenas can get any shot he wants, the same cannot be said for Butler.

In all honesty though, neither of them is ever going to win a title by themselves. With the way the NBA game has evolved there aren't going to be any 2001 76ers going forward (not that they won anything).

To win the title you need to be able to score and you need to be able to defend.

The trouble is that neither Caron nor Arenas do the latter with any consistency or much success. Both are anemic defenders and therein lies the crux.

[nate33]

That said, Caron doesn't possess the elite athleticism that the top players in the league use to break down defenders on a regular basis. To his credit, he's added a somewhat reliable three point shot to his arsenal but even with that his game doesn't have nearly the range as Gilberts does.

Agreed. Butler is not a first-option scorer. He's a second-option kind of guy. What's great about Butler is his ability to recognize what the team needs most (passing, rebounding, scoring, defense) and give it to them on any given night. It makes him a great player. But it doesn't make him a superstar. The team still needs a guy like Arenas.

To win the title you need to be able to score and you need to be able to defend.

The trouble is that neither Caron nor Arenas do the latter with any consistency or much success. Both are anemic defenders and therein lies the crux.

I wouldn't call Butler an "anemic" defender. He occasionally gets burned by certain matchups, but on balance, he plays pretty good D. At least with Butler, one can say that he isn't wasting his defensive potential. There's only so much one can expect out of a 6-6 SF who is athletic, but not freakishly so.

Arenas is the guy who needs to get better on D. So many of his defensive inadequacies are mental. He just has to play smarter and more disciplined. Arenas has the size, wingspan and quickness to be an exceptional defender. There's no reason for him to be below average.

[queridiculo]

-= original quote snipped =-

I wouldn't call Butler an "anemic" defender. He occasionally gets burned by certain matchups, but on balance, he plays pretty good D. At least with Butler, one can say that he isn't wasting his defensive potential. There's only so much one can expect out of a 6-6 SF who is athletic, but not freakishly so.

I'm willing to give Butler the benefit of the doubt, espescially considering how banged up he's been lately. What I have noticed over the past few weeks though is that Caron seems a bit disinterested on defense.

I don't see him closing out on shooters effectively and he reaches more than he does move his feet.

Collectively the Wizards just have very poor instincts defensively and it's hard to separate how much of that is lack of aptitude and scheme.