Should we start Brad/Spencer together?+a few random thoughts

[BMiller52]

Okay, 1st I'd like to say I'm less opposed to the idea than I was before. I'm not talking about a longterm pairing of 2 players like that(like trying to find a guy like Brad to put next to Spencer permanently) because that would limit this team's overall ceiling for how good we can be.

However, Brad might be here still next year and Spencer IMO should be a starter. I think we'd be better like that immediately, and with Reggie using Spencer off the bench as the 3rd big man that pairing is in the game at times anyway. Offensively with Kevin and Ron I think the BBall IQ is really high, and I think if we could find a good PG(maybe Beno is the guy, maybe we trade for the guy, maybe we find the guy in the draft) that team could be better immediately while not hurting us in the future. It would only be for a year or 2 until we find that defensive big man to put next to Spencer, or maybe Shelden improves a lot over the next year or 2 and takes that spot. Even though I would kinda like to see Brad traded for parts that will help us in the future, if he's not I think it could work out for the short term. I really think Spencer is better than Mikki, or atleast will be next year. He would give us a low post presence and he's a really good passer, plus he's probably a better rebounder and shotblocker than Mikki anyway. Mikki is active offensively and does a nice job hitting that mid range J, I think as the 3rd/4th guy with Shelden or whoever is a good role for him.

Houston is succeeding at times with Landry/Scola in the game and neither are great defenders, but they're both tough and good role players. They have to play together along with the undersized Hayes because Mutumbo can't play a ton of minutes because of his age. Alston is a solid PG, not a star, and he's succesful with them. Battier's a good defender, Ron's better. So they can succeed with a lot of role players around 1 scorer without Yao, we might be able too also.

It'd also remind me of back when we had Vlade/Miller paired together for the majority of that season and even though it wasn't great defensively it was really good offensively. It would open up a lot of possibilities offensively, Ron is a great defender like DC was and Kevin scores kinda like Peja(great at running off screens and also knocking down open 3s, but K is way better at creating like getting to the rim+FT line and also is doing a nice job passing lately). We don't have Bibby anymore, but if we could find a steady PG or good PG in the draft(Augustin or Collison or someone) I could see it working.
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I guess this also brings up the point of why should we be any worse than we have to? I mean I don't see us finding that SUPERSTAR level player in the draft, as long as we have Ron and especially Kevin we're never going to be that bad. Heck even without Ron we won't be that bad because Kevin, Spencer, Cisco, our pick, Miller, etc. can probably get 35+ wins by themself next year even without Ron. Kevin has improved so much I really don't see us being able to tank next year, especially the way Cisco has improved. We are basically locked into the 12th spot this year so tanking does no good now(we'd had to win like 4 or 5 more than Portland I think, or lose 3 or 4 more than bad eastern conference teams also and I don't think either is happening). If we can find a sleeper in the 2nd round, find a GOOD player with our 1st rounder, we are going to probably have some talent and start to get better(really I guess we already have started because our record is better than last year).

Kevin is probably going to get better some since he's still 2-3 years from his physical prime and works so hard in the offseason(also has noticeably improved since he started working individually with Reggie). I think he can be close to a McGrady level player, maybe just as good. Maybe that will have to do for our star. Is he going to be a Kobe or Bron? No, but he is already basically classified as a star IMO. Jeff Van Gundy was talking about a team's upcoming opponents and since we were 1 of them, said teams have to worry about game planning for Kevin and a game against us is something you have to worry about. He also mentioned Ron. IIRC he was talking about a team better than us also as 1 of the team(houston I think)'s upcoming opponents and mentioned 2 guys who are classified as stars IIRC. Kev averages about 23.5/5/3 or so. I can see him getting 25/5/4(his passing has noticeably improved since working with Reggie also) next year. I know he's not Kobe or LeBron or even Paul, but those guys are MVP candidates. I do however think he can be on par with the guys like TMac, Ray/Pierce, etc.

So even though these are kinda 3 different ideas/points, they all revolve around the same topic, or atleast that is the way I view it. Mainly that we should start trying to improve now, we may have to build more of a team of good players who play a role with Kevin as our star(kind of like Houston without Yao, or maybe if Spencer improves enough we'd be like Houston WITH Yao), and the need to improve our team soon. I really feel like we should model our team after the way Houston/Detroit or teams like that are, because we're not going to get a guy like Kobe or Bron or Duncan to build our team around. Even if we got rid of Ron we won't have a top3-5 pick. I can see a guy like Augustin being like a poor man's Chris Paul though to be honest so if he slips to us that'd be tight also.

Maybe I don't have a strong point, but I have typed too much stuff to delete it all now so I am hitting post anyway!!!

[KF10]

Okay, 1st I'd like to say I'm less opposed to the idea than I was before. I'm not talking about a longterm pairing of 2 players like that(like trying to find a guy like Brad to put next to Spencer permanently) because that would limit this team's overall ceiling for how good we can be.

Yeah, sure. If this move is like short term based. Yeah, we could try this move out. We have nothing to lose. (Even though, the coach wants to win. But the Maloofs want to see the young guys even more, so ehh.)

However, Brad might be here still next year and Spencer IMO should be a starter. I think we'd be better like that immediately, and with Reggie using Spencer off the bench as the 3rd big man that pairing is in the game at times anyway. Offensively with Kevin and Ron I think the BBall IQ is really high, and I think if we could find a good PG(maybe Beno is the guy, maybe we trade for the guy, maybe we find the guy in the draft) that team could be better immediately while not hurting us in the future. It would only be for a year or 2 until we find that defensive big man to put next to Spencer, or maybe Shelden improves a lot over the next year or 2 and takes that spot. Even though I would kinda like to see Brad traded for parts that will help us in the future, if he's not I think it could work out for the short term. I really think Spencer is better than Mikki, or atleast will be next year. He would give us a low post presence and he's a really good passer, plus he's probably a better rebounder and shotblocker than Mikki anyway. Mikki is active offensively and does a nice job hitting that mid range J, I think as the 3rd/4th guy with Shelden or whoever is a good role for him.

Yeah, I wont be mad doing that move. But you have to consider that a Miller/Hawes combo will conflict Mikki's minutes. I dont know how will Mikki react to this. I dont know. I think he will understand. But yeah, this is also will bring up Sheldon's minutes. A Miller/Hawes combo could be special if we decide to do it...Like now.

Houston is succeeding at times with Landry/Scola in the game and neither are great defenders, but they're both tough and good role players. They have to play together along with the undersized Hayes because Mutumbo can't play a ton of minutes because of his age. Alston is a solid PG, not a star, and he's succesful with them. Battier's a good defender, Ron's better. So they can succeed with a lot of role players around 1 scorer without Yao, we might be able too also.

The only difference between that combo (Landry/Scola) is that they are a young more ready combo than a Hawes/Miller combo. Even though, Scola is 27 yrs old. They are kinda more ready and fluid. I dont see a Miller/Hawes combo ready immediately like the combo mentioned. But if we do it, it is ultimately a mid-risk to high-potential IMO.

It'd also remind me of back when we had Vlade/Miller paired together for the majority of that season and even though it wasn't great defensively it was really good offensively. It would open up a lot of possibilities offensively, Ron is a great defender like DC was and Kevin scores kinda like Peja(great at running off screens and also knocking down open 3s, but K is way better at creating like getting to the rim+FT line and also is doing a nice job passing lately). We don't have Bibby anymore, but if we could find a steady PG or good PG in the draft(Augustin or Collison or someone) I could see it working.

Yeah, I do see the comparison. I actually thought about this once. Yeah, all the comparisons are accurate, I guess. But all those players were successful due to the system we played (Princeton Offense) They actually gel together EXTREMELY well. If we have some type of system that achieves the players strengths, yeah this will be successful. But we are playing a system that I dont really have a clue...lol... We are basically playing some type of halfcourt offense that basically consists feeding the ball to Artest and hopes that he kicks out to the open man (or cutters) thus promoting a working offense. It is not pretty but actually successful to some extent. But we do have establish roles to players to make this actually work. You compare Artest to DC. True they are good defenders, Artest is the better one obviously. But DC knew his role, a defensive specialist and playmaker. Artest needs to adjust his role like that to make this combo and offense to work IMO.

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I guess this also brings up the point of why should we be any worse than we have to? I mean I don't see us finding that SUPERSTAR level player in the draft, as long as we have Ron and especially Kevin we're never going to be that bad. Heck even without Ron we won't be that bad because Kevin, Spencer, Cisco, our pick, Miller, etc. can probably get 35+ wins by themself next year even without Ron. Kevin has improved so much I really don't see us being able to tank next year, especially the way Cisco has improved. We are basically locked into the 12th spot this year so tanking does no good now(we'd had to win like 4 or 5 more than Portland I think, or lose 3 or 4 more than bad eastern conference teams also and I don't think either is happening). If we can find a sleeper in the 2nd round, find a GOOD player with our 1st rounder, we are going to probably have some talent and start to get better(really I guess we already have started because our record is better than last year).

Eh, it seems like we are going to settle for average. We dont want that. 35 wins is not good. The only exception to that if we improve every year. And I do see that IMO. Knowing that Petrie will find a sleeper in the draft. This could actually happen. We draft a good player that fills one of our holes of weakness (Defense, rebounding, and etc...) Probably we should pick up Arthur. Because he fills out important needs. Maybe we should draft a PG because we dont resign Beno, I could see that Petrie will draft a PG like a Collison (A 2 way PG. Which we need) or a DJ (Argubally a higher ceiling than Collison). So, eh.

Kevin is probably going to get better some since he's still 2-3 years from his physical prime and works so hard in the offseason(also has noticeably improved since he started working individually with Reggie). I think he can be close to a McGrady level player, maybe just as good. Maybe that will have to do for our star. Is he going to be a Kobe or Bron? No, but he is already basically classified as a star IMO. Jeff Van Gundy was talking about a team's upcoming opponents and since we were 1 of them, said teams have to worry about game planning for Kevin and a game against us is something you have to worry about. He also mentioned Ron. IIRC he was talking about a team better than us also as 1 of the team(houston I think)'s upcoming opponents and mentioned 2 guys who are classified as stars IIRC. Kev averages about 23.5/5/3 or so. I can see him getting 25/5/4(his passing has noticeably improved since working with Reggie also) next year. I know he's not Kobe or LeBron or even Paul, but those guys are MVP candidates. I do however think he can be on par with the guys like TMac, Ray/Pierce, etc.

Yeah, I agree.

So even though these are kinda 3 different ideas/points, they all revolve around the same topic, or atleast that is the way I view it. Mainly that we should start trying to improve now, we may have to build more of a team of good players who play a role with Kevin as our star(kind of like Houston without Yao, or maybe if Spencer improves enough we'd be like Houston WITH Yao), and the need to improve our team soon. I really feel like we should model our team after the way Houston/Detroit or teams like that are, because we're not going to get a guy like Kobe or Bron or Duncan to build our team around. Even if we got rid of Ron we won't have a top3-5 pick. I can see a guy like Augustin being like a poor man's Chris Paul though to be honest so if he slips to us that'd be tight also.

Yeah, we do have several options to choose. The best option is to model our team like a Houston/Detroit. But this is assuming that the combo of Miller/Hawes would work and everyone accepts their roles. If we achieve this and have some luck. I could see this team successful in couple of years.

Maybe I don't have a strong point, but I have typed too much stuff to delete it all now so I am hitting post anyway!!!

[Cruel_Ruin]

I see where you're coming from, but I disagree about Kevin being our "McGrady" because that takes away from what he does best, which is play off of weaknesses in the defense. I think finding a pass-first PG in the draft, maybe a banger with one of our second rounders (Or by trading up into the late first round with those seconds) and we can be a decent team next year. Say you take Augustin with our lotto pick, and DeVon Hardin, you could go into next season with:

Augustin/Beno
Martin/Garcia
Artest/Salmons
Hardin/Moore
Miller/Hawes

That isn't bad, possibly an 8th seed.

Or...

We could go another way, trying to trade up in the draft to pick up a lottory PF. Say, if we trade Brad to Charlotte for a pick swap, we could theoretically pick up Blake Griffin. Artest for Denver's package of #14/expiring (Or whoever misses the playoffs), and pick up Lawson as the sparkplug sixth man? You're then looking at:

Beno/Lawson
Martin/Douby
Salmons/Garcia
Griffin/Moore
Hawes/Hardin

That would be an exciting lineup to me, at least. It would be a 10th seed next year, but then afterwards it's all looking upwards.

There's a lot of different directions we can go.

[SacKingZZZ]

I tried it before! You'll get shot down again!!! Haha.

No seriously same rules apply to when I brought it up near the start of the season. If Ron Artest is at the 3 it simply won't work. As Spencer is showing he is more than capable of working out of the high post or low post in terms of his playmaking skills. He and Brad could be deadly in the pick and roll/pop, and in the high post or we could eve spread out both all the way to opposite 3 point lines! If Kevin is the focus of the offense I wouldn't be surprised to see him average 30 ppg for the whole year, and quite easily in fact. But Ron kind of clogs it up, and there is no sense in sticking him out on the perimeter or using him off screens, that isn't his game at all.

That said, I think now that this year is over it's time that youth is served for the next couple of seasons. We wasted a year of what could have been with our style of play, considering that lineup didn't have much of a window anyway (Spencer and Brad that is) I think it's best next year to just clear up as much development time for what will be 3 lotto picks, 7 first round picks in the last 4 years overall, and our 2 second round picks.

[pillwenney]

I'd be fine with it in a "why not?" kind of way. I just also know that it could never contend, but BMiller acknowledged that.

But I also think it's pretty clear that Reggie prefers to run an offense more centered on Ron than on Brad, so a Princeton-like set probably wouldn't work.

Also, while Spencer has shown remarkable passing ability for a guy as young as he is, I don't know if he's really ready to be an offensive centerpiece yet.

[BMiller52]

I'd be fine with it in a "why not?" kind of way. I just also know that it could never contend, but BMiller acknowledged that.

But I also think it's pretty clear that Reggie prefers to run an offense more centered on Ron than on Brad, so a Princeton-like set probably wouldn't work.

Also, while Spencer has shown remarkable passing ability for a guy as young as he is, I don't know if he's really ready to be an offensive centerpiece yet.

I don't think he'd be the centerpiece though. I mean the passing/shooting at the elbow and his post game would be helpful but our offense would still be designed around KMart and Ron if he's still here. It's just like, if you have Brad at the elbow and Spencer also at that 15 ft area that opens things up for Martin to cut and them to throw passes to him cutting to the basket(like Brad does sometimes already). It also would be easier to run him off screens and gives him more room to ISO. I really think it would help Kevin's offense a lot. Also if Spencer and Brad are both playing out farther and Ron has a mismatch, he can go to work in the post without worrying about a shotblocker coming over to swat him and if they do, he just throws it out to Brad or Spencer. The spacing is similar already with Mikki because he has no post game, he's just not as good of passer or post player that Spencer already is.

Like you said I already acknowledged it's not a long term solution. But to get the most out of what we have in the short term, I think it's an option. We'll have to go to the draft or trade to get the PF that will make it eventually work and make us a contender.

[BMiller52]

Yeah, sure. If this move is like short term based. Yeah, we could try this move out. We have nothing to lose. (Even though, the coach wants to win. But the Maloofs want to see the young guys even more, so ehh.)

Yea it's not a long term thing, just to see what we could get out of Miller while he's still here and stuff while not holding back Spencer.

But you have to consider that a Miller/Hawes combo will conflict Mikki's minutes. I dont know how will Mikki react to this. I dont know. I think he will understand. But yeah, this is also will bring up Sheldon's minutes. A Miller/Hawes combo could be special if we decide to do it...Like now.

Yeah Mikki might get pissed, but really he's nothing more than a good big man off the bench as your 3rd big or a bad/mediocre(not productive statistically, even though he does lot of the little things like take charges) starter. I mean it would suck if it got his feelings hurt but oh well, he seems like a team player and his minutes wouldnt go down too much. He'd still play. Probably be more able to take charges and stuff because he'd have less time he'd have to be out there, so he could gamble with fouls more.

The only difference between that combo (Landry/Scola) is that they are a young more ready combo than a Hawes/Miller combo. Even though, Scola is 27 yrs old. They are kinda more ready and fluid. I dont see a Miller/Hawes combo ready immediately like the combo mentioned. But if we do it, it is ultimately a mid-risk to high-potential IMO.

Well yeah they are more fluid and rotate better defensively I guess, but Spencer and Miller have more size so maybe it cancels out.

Yeah, I do see the comparison. I actually thought about this once. Yeah, all the comparisons are accurate, I guess. But all those players were successful due to the system we played (Princeton Offense) They actually gel together EXTREMELY well. If we have some type of system that achieves the players strengths, yeah this will be successful. But we are playing a system that I dont really have a clue...lol... We are basically playing some type of halfcourt offense that basically consists feeding the ball to Artest and hopes that he kicks out to the open man (or cutters) thus promoting a working offense. It is not pretty but actually successful to some extent. But we do have establish roles to players to make this actually work. You compare Artest to DC. True they are good defenders, Artest is the better one obviously. But DC knew his role, a defensive specialist and playmaker. Artest needs to adjust his role like that to make this combo and offense to work IMO.


Yea you are right there, but we run some of the princeton sets and stuff still. Spacing is similar sometimes with the big guys at the elbows and Kev slashing. We just don't run it all the time. But if we did, or just run a "Princeton on steroids" like the Memphis Tigers' coach John Calipari uses(if you guys watch college ball) type of thing a lot of our players would succeed. Right now I think our "system" is kind of a hodge podge group of ISOs, back cuts(from the Princeton O with Brad actually), a lot of pick and roll, and a lot of drive and kick. Yeah Artest would have to adjust, but it could work just as easily if he ends up being traded because I'm confident Salmons or Cisco could play the DC role also. Ron would just be DC on steroids really, but without some of the ball handling and playmaking. But in Ron's first season here(well half season really), Rick was able to get him to fit into a Princeton type O and also Bonzi.

Yea you are right there, but we run some of the princeton sets and stuff still. Spacing is similar sometimes with the big guys at the elbows and Kev slashing. We just don't run it all the time. But if we did, or just run a "Princeton on steroids" like the Memphis Tigers' coach John Calipari uses(if you guys watch college ball) type of thing a lot of our players would succeed. Right now I think our "system" is kind of a hodge podge group of ISOs, back cuts(from the Princeton O with Brad actually), a lot of pick and roll, and a lot of drive and kick. Yeah Artest would have to adjust, but it could work just as easily if he ends up being traded because I'm confident Salmons or Cisco could play the DC role also. Ron would just be DC on steroids really, but without some of the ball handling and playmaking. But in Ron's first season here(well half season really), Rick was able to get him to fit into a Princeton type O and also Bonzi.

Eh, it seems like we are going to settle for average. We dont want that. 35 wins is not good. The only exception to that if we improve every year. And I do see that IMO. Knowing that Petrie will find a sleeper in the draft. This could actually happen. We draft a good player that fills one of our holes of weakness (Defense, rebounding, and etc...) Probably we should pick up Arthur. Because he fills out important needs. Maybe we should draft a PG because we dont resign Beno, I could see that Petrie will draft a PG like a Collison (A 2 way PG. Which we need) or a DJ (Argubally a higher ceiling than Collison). So, eh.

I would prefer a guy like DJ in this type of team, and also I'm really unimpressed with Collison after he got destroyed by Rose today. I guess that's another topic but I really like how DJ could fit in on a team like that considering he knocks down 3s really well, gets out and runs, can slash, but he'd also be able to come off screens or cut to the basket and get passes from the high post so I think he'd work out real well. But also I like Arthur because he fixes weaknesses and I like Russ Westbrook as a potential PG too. I dunno if we'll re-sign Beno, Reggie really seems to like him but he's more of a slasher than shooter and doesn't pass too well so i'm not sure he's a Petrie type player.

Yeah, we do have several options to choose. The best option is to model our team like a Houston/Detroit. But this is assuming that the combo of Miller/Hawes would work and everyone accepts their roles. If we achieve this and have some luck. I could see this team successful in couple of years.
Yeah, I agree.

[Wolfay]

Brad and Vlade worked well together when Webber was out. Not quite the same thing, I know, but two similar centers can work ok together for a little while.

[KF10]

-= original quote snipped =-
Yea it's not a long term thing, just to see what we could get out of Miller while he's still here and stuff while not holding back Spencer.

Ok. Agreed.

Yeah Mikki might get pissed, but really he's nothing more than a good big man off the bench as your 3rd big or a bad/mediocre(not productive statistically, even though he does lot of the little things like take charges) starter. I mean it would suck if it got his feelings hurt but oh well, he seems like a team player and his minutes wouldnt go down too much. He'd still play. Probably be more able to take charges and stuff because he'd have less time he'd have to be out there, so he could gamble with fouls more.

Yeah. If Mikki is really THAT team/chemistry player, he should have NO problem to be on the bench, I guess. Other then that, that issue is solved.


Well yeah they are more fluid and rotate better defensively I guess, but Spencer and Miller have more size so maybe it cancels out.


Eh, true they do have size and might cancel that predicament but having more size doesnt means that you will be successful IMO. Im not saying that a Hawes/Miller combo will be unsuccessful but Im just implying that it has some deficiencies IMO. But their strengths will make up for that IMO.

Yea you are right there, but we run some of the princeton sets and stuff still. Spacing is similar sometimes with the big guys at the elbows and Kev slashing. We just don't run it all the time. But if we did, or just run a "Princeton on steroids" like the Memphis Tigers' coach John Calipari uses(if you guys watch college ball) type of thing a lot of our players would succeed. Right now I think our "system" is kind of a hodge podge group of ISOs, back cuts(from the Princeton O with Brad actually), a lot of pick and roll, and a lot of drive and kick. Yeah Artest would have to adjust, but it could work just as easily if he ends up being traded because I'm confident Salmons or Cisco could play the DC role also. Ron would just be DC on steroids really, but without some of the ball handling and playmaking. But in Ron's first season here(well half season really), Rick was able to get him to fit into a Princeton type O and also Bonzi.

Yeah, true, we still run a variation of the Princeton Offense. But ultimately,
if we did this Hawes/Miller combo, our current offense will not be a good fit for that. The #1 issue is Artest. Will he adjust? Yeah, in his 1st year he did to some extent "adjusted" But Theus is no Adelman. And we had Bonzi which complements Artest's game. Martin does complements Artest's game but not better then the Bonzi/Artest combo. Well, it comes down to Artest, really IMO.

I would prefer a guy like DJ in this type of team, and also I'm really unimpressed with Collison after he got destroyed by Rose today. I guess that's another topic but I really like how DJ could fit in on a team like that considering he knocks down 3s really well, gets out and runs, can slash, but he'd also be able to come off screens or cut to the basket and get passes from the high post so I think he'd work out real well. But also I like Arthur because he fixes weaknesses and I like Russ Westbrook as a potential PG too. I dunno if we'll re-sign Beno, Reggie really seems to like him but he's more of a slasher than shooter and doesn't pass too well so i'm not sure he's a Petrie type player.

Oh, come on now. Rose was a mismatch to Collison. And not to mention that Rose is bigger, stronger, and better then Collison. But yeah, Collison got destroyed by Rose. But you still see Collison's effort on defense against Rose, even though it didnt work on Rose but you can see that Collison is a great defender IMO. I like DJ and your above reasons are true. I like either DJ, Collison or Arthur. But ehh, lets see what will happen in the following months...

Yeah, I agree.

[SacKingZZZ]

I'd be fine with it in a "why not?" kind of way. I just also know that it could never contend, but BMiller acknowledged that.

But I also think it's pretty clear that Reggie prefers to run an offense more centered on Ron than on Brad, so a Princeton-like set probably wouldn't work.

Also, while Spencer has shown remarkable passing ability for a guy as young as he is, I don't know if he's really ready to be an offensive centerpiece yet.

Not really, about half and half, we actually play a lot more Princeton than we do solely through Ron the last couple of months. Ron has even manned the high post on occasion.

[Bac2Basics]

I think now with the last few games of the season left would be a perfect time to experiment with that kind of thing.

I don't think it's a long term solution, but it's something that can be done.