The Kedrick Brown Story

[BillessuR6]

[celtxman]

[BigHands]

I agree that Wallace is, and was, over his head but OB played a roll in that fiasco too.

All OB cared about was defense and the 3 ball. He focused on little else.

The Celtics of his day did not move without the ball they did not move ball itself, they could not run the break, they could not break a press.

He actually said in the paper once that he wanted the team to shoot quickly so they could be more rested for defense.

OB obviously won some games (I always gave the credit to Harter) but IMO it was a bizarre point in time.

When it came to defense and the 3 ball Brown was more developed than Joe Johnson and the fact that the latter clearly had a nicely developing overall skill set that the former never would carried no weight with OB because Joe Johnson's obvious skills were not high on OB's priority list.

So JJ was sent packing with a number 1 pick for an under-sized forward with a history of weight problems that could shoot the 3 and an under-sized 2 guard that should shoot the 3 on occasion.

[celticfan42487]

So he traded Joe Johnson because he was in a shooting slump [or his confidence was down but he was still shooting well] because Kedrick was shooting the 3 and might become the next James Posey?

Oh yes mighty GM, I see now, Obie's momentary starting rotation blinded your ability to project players development. The earlier strides Joe made when in the starting lineup were just that, earlier, I mean honestly who is supposed to keep track of this forecasting stuff? Certianly not GM Wallace, no blame Obie plz, oh and the Gasol thing... ummm... blame the owners!

[eloper]

Johnson looked terrible here, he was hesitant to shoot, never drove the lane, and didn't show the ability to do anything but hit the occasional wide open shot. It really wasn't as absurd as people are making it seem to think that at that point in their careers, Kedrick was looking more promising.

I don't think Joe becomes the player he is today without going to Phoenix and playing in a system that suited his needs. He gained a boat load of confidence there, and IMO it transformed his career. I think had he been stuck here, with a coach like OB, he never would have gained that confidence and very well may have even ended up out of the league.

[bruno sundov]

Johnson looked terrible here, he was hesitant to shoot, never drove the lane, and didn't show the ability to do anything but hit the occasional wide open shot. It really wasn't as absurd as people are making it seem to think that at that point in their careers, Kedrick was looking more promising.

I don't think Joe becomes the player he is today without going to Phoenix and playing in a system that suited his needs. He gained a boat load of confidence there, and IMO it transformed his career. I think had he been stuck here, with a coach like OB, he never would have gained that confidence and very well may have even ended up out of the league.

What are you talking about? JJ shot over 50% for the first dozen or so games. He hit the rookie wall an got shipped out of town. WOW!!

[cisco]

Johnson looked terrible here, he was hesitant to shoot, never drove the lane, and didn't show the ability to do anything but hit the occasional wide open shot. It really wasn't as absurd as people are making it seem to think that at that point in their careers, Kedrick was looking more promising.

Um, Joe Johnson was a friggin rookie!

Geez, Gerald Green showed absolutely nothing, nowhere near what JJ showed and Ainge at least gave GG a couple of years to show something. You don't give up on rookies with great potential before they get a chance to at least get used to the NBA game. JJ (and Billups) were drafted high for a reason.

[e in boulder]

I wouldn't let Chris Wallace wash my car at this point.

Memphis Businessmen = not very smart.

[LarryBrdismyDad]

Johnson looked terrible here, he was hesitant to shoot, never drove the lane, and didn't show the ability to do anything but hit the occasional wide open shot. It really wasn't as absurd as people are making it seem to think that at that point in their careers, Kedrick was looking more promising.

I don't think Joe becomes the player he is today without going to Phoenix and playing in a system that suited his needs. He gained a boat load of confidence there, and IMO it transformed his career. I think had he been stuck here, with a coach like OB, he never would have gained that confidence and very well may have even ended up out of the league.

Johnson actually looked very good for the first 2 months of the season. He was named rookie of the month in November and he was scoring about 12 to 15 ppg with good percentages. He was getting good minutes and he was very productive when he was out on the court. Then he hit a shooting slump and the rookie wall and he started receiving a lot of DNPs in January. Kedrick Brown was really doing nothing but defending and driving to the hoop once in awhile. He was athletic but it was pretty clear at the time that he was never going to be a scorer and at best he would be a defensive stopping role player.

The thing that gets me so pissed off is that Wallace couldn't see that Johnson was going to be good when the average fan could. Obie should have had zero say in this trade. All Obie cared about was winning at the time with veterans and not developing the young talent we had. So we made this trade and risked the future of the franchise to get Rodney Rogers and Tony Delk to try and get to the NBA Finals and get killed by the Lakers or Kings. This is a huge reason this trade should have never been done. This move wasn't getting us over the top and we were trading a highly talented lottery pick. I will never forget how pissed off I was after the first game Johnson played in for Phoenix in which he had 23 pts and something like 6 rebs and 4 asts.

I also remember reading an article that after Obie and Wallace watched tape on all the NBA draft prospects that Johnson was the player that they wanted the most. Then when we drafted him they were estatic only to trade him 8 months later. This was just another great decision from the moron Chris Wallace.

[return2glory]

Johnson looked terrible here, he was hesitant to shoot, never drove the lane, and didn't show the ability to do anything but hit the occasional wide open shot. It really wasn't as absurd as people are making it seem to think that at that point in their careers, Kedrick was looking more promising.

I don't think Joe becomes the player he is today without going to Phoenix and playing in a system that suited his needs. He gained a boat load of confidence there, and IMO it transformed his career. I think had he been stuck here, with a coach like OB, he never would have gained that confidence and very well may have even ended up out of the league.

Bull ****! Eric Williams was starting in front of J.J. When Williams got hurt and was out for about 2-3 weeks, J.J. replaced him in the starting lineup. During that time, J.J. had 20 points or more for 4 or 5 straight games. He was playing really well. Then E. Will comes back from his injury and Jim' O'Moron sends J.J. back to the bench and hardly uses him. Soon after, J.J. was traded away for Delk and Rogers.

It was mainly Jim O'Moron's fault. He should have been playing J.J. more. Jim O'Brien is an ass and will be unsuccessful every where he goes in this league and he is proving that each and every year.

[eloper]

Um, Joe Johnson was a friggin rookie!

Geez, Gerald Green showed absolutely nothing, nowhere near what JJ showed and Ainge at least gave GG a couple of years to show something. You don't give up on rookies with great potential before they get a chance to at least get used to the NBA game. JJ (and Billups) were drafted high for a reason.

This discussion should have nothing to do with Gerald Green. Since you baited me and brought him up however, Johnson's numbers in his first two years weren't any better than Green's. Johnson showed himself to be a better ballhandler/passer while Green showed himself to be a more prolific and efficient scorer, which resulted in PERs of about 12 in the early stages of their careers. Joe of course made major strides throughout the rest of his career, something Gerald has yet to do, but early in their careers both Joe and Gerald showed themselves to have some very similar issues. You gave up on Gerald pretty early, so why is it so absurd to think people would do the same with JJ?

I'm not saying Boston should have given up on JJ, of course that was a poor choice, but fact is JJ didn't do a whole lot while he was here. The 12 PER he posted, with a TS% below 50% and a whopping 10.9 points per 36 minutes was far from impressive, sorry if I'm missing something. I'm not saying he didn't have solid stretches, he did, but he also had stretches where he looked like ****.

I'm a big Joe Johnson fan and always will be, but his time in Boston was unimpressive. He was tentative and severely lacked confidence while here, and typically players who display those traits don't go on to become superstars or All-Stars. This town wasn't all that high on Johnson when he was dealt, I remember report after report talking about how Johnson wasn't willing to drive the lane, and how Johnson didn't have the competitive fire to make it in the league.

What are you talking about? JJ shot over 50% for the first dozen or so games. He hit the rookie wall an got shipped out of town. WOW!!

Players don't hit the rookie wall after 12 games. Johnson did start off the season solid, but he quickly lost his confidence and his play was far from encouraging leading up to the time of the trade.

Johnson actually looked very good for the first 2 months of the season. He was named rookie of the month in November and he was scoring about 12 to 15 ppg with good percentages. He was getting good minutes and he was very productive when he was out on the court. Then he hit a shooting slump and the rookie wall and he started receiving a lot of DNPs in January. Kedrick Brown was really doing nothing but defending and driving to the hoop once in awhile. He was athletic but it was pretty clear at the time that he was never going to be a scorer and at best he would be a defensive stopping role player.

The thing that gets me so pissed off is that Wallace couldn't see that Johnson was going to be good when the average fan could. Obie should have had zero say in this trade. All Obie cared about was winning at the time with veterans and not developing the young talent we had. So we made this trade and risked the future of the franchise to get Rodney Rogers and Tony Delk to try and get to the NBA Finals and get killed by the Lakers or Kings. This is a huge reason this trade should have never been done. This move wasn't getting us over the top and we were trading a highly talented lottery pick. I will never forget how pissed off I was after the first game Johnson played in for Phoenix in which he had 23 pts and something like 6 rebs and 4 asts.

I also remember reading an article that after Obie and Wallace watched tape on all the NBA draft prospects that Johnson was the player that they wanted the most. Then when we drafted him they were estatic only to trade him 8 months later. This was just another great decision from the moron Chris Wallace.

Johnson didn't average over 10 ppg for a single month as a member of the Celtics. Your right, he did have two fairly solid months in November and December, but neither was anything special. And then yes, he hit that slump and started playing terribly, so the question became which was the real Joe Johnson, the one that was playing pretty well at the beginning of the season, or the one that looked like he didn't belong anywhere near the NBA during his slump.

Kedrick had only played 150 or so minutes to that point, was playing good defense, and displayed some top tier athleticism. He was raw, but if Kedrick had given a **** about basketball, there was a damned good chance he could have been better than a defensive role player. The average fan didn't think JJ was going to be some sort of star, that just couldn't be any further from the truth. The way JJ was playing it looked like HE was going to be the role player. He didn't appear to have a scorers mentality what so ever.

[LarryBrdismyDad]

Um, Joe Johnson was a friggin rookie!

Geez, Gerald Green showed absolutely nothing, nowhere near what JJ showed and Ainge at least gave GG a couple of years to show something. You don't give up on rookies with great potential before they get a chance to at least get used to the NBA game. JJ (and Billups) were drafted high for a reason.

This discussion should have nothing to do with Gerald Green. Since you baited me and brought him up however, Johnson's numbers in his first two years weren't any better than Green's. Johnson showed himself to be a better ballhandler/passer while Green showed himself to be a more prolific and efficient scorer, which resulted in PERs of about 12 in the early stages of their careers. Joe of course made major strides throughout the rest of his career, something Gerald has yet to do, but early in their careers both Joe and Gerald showed themselves to have some very similar issues. You gave up on Gerald pretty early, so why is it so absurd to think people would do the same with JJ?

I'm not saying Boston should have given up on JJ, of course that was a poor choice, but fact is JJ didn't do a whole lot while he was here. The 12 PER he posted, with a TS% below 50% and a whopping 10.9 points per 36 minutes was far from impressive, sorry if I'm missing something. I'm not saying he didn't have solid stretches, he did, but he also had stretches where he looked like ****.

I'm a big Joe Johnson fan and always will be, but his time in Boston was unimpressive. He was tentative and severely lacked confidence while here, and typically players who display those traits don't go on to become superstars or All-Stars. This town wasn't all that high on Johnson when he was dealt, I remember report after report talking about how Johnson wasn't willing to drive the lane, and how Johnson didn't have the competitive fire to make it in the league.

What are you talking about? JJ shot over 50% for the first dozen or so games. He hit the rookie wall an got shipped out of town. WOW!!

Players don't hit the rookie wall after 12 games. Johnson did start off the season solid, but he quickly lost his confidence and his play was far from encouraging leading up to the time of the trade.

Johnson actually looked very good for the first 2 months of the season. He was named rookie of the month in November and he was scoring about 12 to 15 ppg with good percentages. He was getting good minutes and he was very productive when he was out on the court. Then he hit a shooting slump and the rookie wall and he started receiving a lot of DNPs in January. Kedrick Brown was really doing nothing but defending and driving to the hoop once in awhile. He was athletic but it was pretty clear at the time that he was never going to be a scorer and at best he would be a defensive stopping role player.

The thing that gets me so pissed off is that Wallace couldn't see that Johnson was going to be good when the average fan could. Obie should have had zero say in this trade. All Obie cared about was winning at the time with veterans and not developing the young talent we had. So we made this trade and risked the future of the franchise to get Rodney Rogers and Tony Delk to try and get to the NBA Finals and get killed by the Lakers or Kings. This is a huge reason this trade should have never been done. This move wasn't getting us over the top and we were trading a highly talented lottery pick. I will never forget how pissed off I was after the first game Johnson played in for Phoenix in which he had 23 pts and something like 6 rebs and 4 asts.

I also remember reading an article that after Obie and Wallace watched tape on all the NBA draft prospects that Johnson was the player that they wanted the most. Then when we drafted him they were estatic only to trade him 8 months later. This was just another great decision from the moron Chris Wallace.

Johnson didn't average over 10 ppg for a single month as a member of the Celtics. Your right, he did have two fairly solid months in November and December, but neither was anything special. And then yes, he hit that slump and started playing terribly, so the question became which was the real Joe Johnson, the one that was playing pretty well at the beginning of the season, or the one that looked like he didn't belong anywhere near the NBA during his slump.

Kedrick had only played 150 or so minutes to that point, was playing good defense, and displayed some top tier athleticism. He was raw, but if Kedrick had given a **** about basketball, there was a damned good chance he could have been better than a defensive role player. The average fan didn't think JJ was going to be some sort of star, that just couldn't be any further from the truth. The way JJ was playing it looked like HE was going to be the role player. He didn't appear to have a scorers mentality what so ever.

I still think Johnson would have eventually turned the corner the next season and we would have had him and Pierce on the wings for yrs to come. Johnson I remember was so underutilized in our system because Obie basically had him sitting in the corner shooting 3's. Our offense back then was awfully ran. All we did was launch 3's. Thats why pieces of crap like Walter McCarty could play in it because thats all he did.

The bottomline is you don't trade a 21 yr old lottery pick for two role players so you can have A CHANCE to get swept in the Finals by the Lakers or Kings!

[celticfan42487]

Gerald Wallace made the trade not J'Omoron as one poster like to say.

And Eric was a well placed veterant on the team who deserved to keep his spot. I'm sure Joe would of got his way back into the roation.. he doesn't need to be put on a silver platter and a lil competition is good for everyone.

At the very least Wallace should of thought, wow this Joe fella already has shown he can hit open shots and guard the 2.. he might make a great roleplayer next to Pierce.. AT THE VERY LEAST.

BTW nice piece of info, the owner didn't re-sign Rogers who was a big part of the JJ trade. **** icing on the cake. God our team was like the orphan Knicks back then

[MyInsatiableOne]

-= original quote snipped =-



What are you talking about? JJ shot over 50% for the first dozen or so games. He hit the rookie wall an got shipped out of town. WOW!!

This.

[armageddon]

Unfortunately, because its too easy, you can't just point to Obie or Wallace as the foils here. The whole Celtics organization was a complete abortion at this time with absolutely no direction. They were another Clippers type team, happy that the fans still showed up and only worried about the team year to year. Not run like a business. Obie only cared about himself and winning now. Wallace was a pussy who got the worst end of every trade. The owners just didn't care.
If JJ and KB were rookies on this team now, they would be brought along slowly, showed the wieght room, and both would be long term productive C's.
Just be happy that we have new ownership and leaders.

[bruno sundov]

-= original quote snipped =-



This.

This? What does that mean?

[MyInsatiableOne]

-= original quote snipped =-



This? What does that mean?

It means I agree completely with *THIS* (see originally quoted post)

[bruno sundov]

Thanks for the clarification. I'm going to start to use that.

[MyInsatiableOne]

No prob. Sorry about the ambiguity...it's something used quite commonly on other boards so I started using it here.

[sully00]

This is like the Chauncey Billups thing. Joe Johnson had a huge confidence issue over the first 3 years of his career. He required having mins and shots forced on him as well as all veterans that were competing with him to be sent away in trades. Jim O'Brien had a 3 year contract with a a mandate to win games. Joe Johnson likely leads the NBA in loss shares over his career, he never would have developed in Boston behind Pierce and Walker. Brown was a better defender, more athletic, and more aggressive. He also wasn't nearly as good but don't kid yourself about how OB felt about him he signed in PHI as soon as he got the job.

Those draft picks were wasted, and terrible moves made but that wasn't as much about inability as it was direction and expectation. Wallace and OB's job was to make the Celtics as successful and profitable as they could over those 3 years and that is what they did and fetched their boss likely twice the value of the franchise when he sold it.

The NBA is a business and at that part of it Wallace is pretty damn good. Fans may not like it but I imagine that Memphis owners are pretty happy to see that 15-16 mil bucks that Wallace just saved them back in their pockets.