Steve Nash vs. Deron Williams

[theoilslick]

Now now....Bat, c'mon man. You gotta represent better than this crap, man.

As far as I can tell, everyone has--mostly--conceded your argument that Deron is a better defender than Nash. Cool, move on.

I voted for Deron, but if I had to win one game that my life depended on, I would probably take Nash right now. Its damn close, but he is still the better player.

To me, Deron is #3 in the NBA right now among PGs. Paul is a fair distance ahead. Deron and Nash are nearly neck and neck, and Billups, Kidd, and (a Ford-less) Calderon are in the next tier.

I agree. Nash and Deron are a lot closer than Nash and Paul or Deron and Paul. Paul should win MVP if NO retain 1st, and it will be a major letdown I think if he doesn't at least make it out of the second round with his and his team's play (and I'm a Nash goer).

[NO-KG-AI]

Did you watch the game, Kidd was obviously the better player and he straight shut down Nash in the fourth quarter. Nash shot like 4-17 from the floor, 5 turn overs.

Kidd destroyed him.

Well I don't think anyone is going to question NAsh's offense, the point you were trying to make this whole thread is that his defense is game changingly bad, yet Kidd had 8 points and 7 assists, 4 turnovers, on 4-11.

[carrottop12]

-= original quote snipped =-



Well I don't think anyone is going to question NAsh's offense, the point you were trying to make this whole thread is that his defense is game changingly bad, yet Kidd had 8 points and 7 assists, 4 turnovers, on 4-11.

Kidd's offense is terrible. I never said it wasn't. What I said is Nash's team consistently gets beaten by opposing teams with top tier PG's. This game proves it. And whether or not Kidd had a huge game is irrelevant. In big games, like the one today, top players come out and play their best game and do what they have to in order for their team to win. Nash came out and was completely frustrated by Kidd, and when he wasn't able to shoot the ball his team completely stopped operating and fell apart in the fourth quarter. Hence only 9 points with that all-star cast. I'm sorry, but if you are the leader and the playmaker of your team and an "MVP" or the second best PG in the league, you don't let your team fall apart like that for 12 minutes and blow a game like that. Especially at home.

This to me is Nash showing his true colors, just like he does against every other top PG in the league.

McGrady gets plastered for not being able to beat the other great players in the league, why do we give Nash a free pass? It's a joke.

Deron brings it, and in the big games he's even better. Prove me wrong, show me where Nash does it and I will believe you.

[Doctor MJ]

Kidd's offense is terrible. I never said it wasn't. What I said is Nash's team consistently gets beaten by opposing teams with top tier PG's. This game proves it. And whether or not Kidd had a huge game is irrelevant. In big games, like the one today, top players come out and play their best game and do what they have to in order for their team to win. Nash came out and was completely frustrated by Kidd, and when he wasn't able to shoot the ball his team completely stopped operating and fell apart in the fourth quarter. Hence only 9 points with that all-star cast. I'm sorry, but if you are the leader and the playmaker of your team and an "MVP" or the second best PG in the league, you don't let your team fall apart like that for 12 minutes and blow a game like that. Especially at home.

This to me is Nash showing his true colors, just like he does against every other top PG in the league.

McGrady gets plastered for not being able to beat the other great players in the league, why do we give Nash a free pass? It's a joke.

Deron brings it, and in the big games he's even better. Prove me wrong, show me where Nash does it and I will believe you.

Oh for god's sake. Nash went for 26 & 13 and 42 & 13 on Kidd last year, so obviously it's not that he can't do well on Kidd. Beyond that, your whole thing before had to do with Nash doing badly on defense not offense.

It's pretty obvious to me that you're just grabbing whatever's handy which points toward your general argument. I would say to you that it's perfectly fine to factor in poor performance from Nash in your estimation of him, however when you take continually take anecdotes as QED for general theories, you lose all your credibility.

[theoilslick]

Kidd's offense is terrible. I never said it wasn't. What I said is Nash's team consistently gets beaten by opposing teams with top tier PG's. This game proves it. And whether or not Kidd had a huge game is irrelevant. In big games, like the one today, top players come out and play their best game and do what they have to in order for their team to win. Nash came out and was completely frustrated by Kidd, and when he wasn't able to shoot the ball his team completely stopped operating and fell apart in the fourth quarter. Hence only 9 points with that all-star cast. I'm sorry, but if you are the leader and the playmaker of your team and an "MVP" or the second best PG in the league, you don't let your team fall apart like that for 12 minutes and blow a game like that. Especially at home.

This to me is Nash showing his true colors, just like he does against every other top PG in the league.

McGrady gets plastered for not being able to beat the other great players in the league, why do we give Nash a free pass? It's a joke.

Deron brings it, and in the big games he's even better. Prove me wrong, show me where Nash does it and I will believe you.

http://www.nba.com/games/20080331/DENPHX/boxscore.html
He really tanked in that game in bringing his team back to take the game handily. And in the follow up loss he put up a paltry 17 pts, 18 ast--guess he should have got 25 assists like he`s shown he can do.

BTW, if you`re going to argue Nash always struggles against big PG`s and say ``whether or not Kidd had a huge game is irrelevant.`` is being inconsistent. And again, how much does ONE game prove, let alone ten of them in a single season.

Look at last season; Nash`s team was 8-3 against the likes of GS, NO, NJ, and Utah. So I guess one year means his true colors are showing

He`s 2-1 against the Spurs and Tony P this year (let`s ignore that). The Suns last game against GS was a 21 pts, 13 ast performance for him, but you can argue Baron`s 38 and 8 must have been bad on Nash even though Baron played 46 mins, shot 30 attempts, and Nash did not guard him for at least 10 min of that time as he was on the bench.

Question is whether Deron can bring his A-game in these playoffs or play like he plays minnesota or atlanta...he is statistically worse in every category (including TO`s) when he plays non-playoff teams (he averages a point less per game while his assists drop to 9 a game and his turnovers increase to 3. . Now that`s pretty odd. You can`t really say he wasn`t trying because that`s not a positive defense at all; but that if I follow your ten-games-proves-all argument, its clear while he plays well against the big PG`s he can be downright mediocre against scrub-calibre PG`s.

[carrottop12]

^^^

Yes because 18 points and 9 assists is mediocre?

And by the way, Nash fans, quit clinging to what happened last year with Nash. When players get older, they start to fall off. Yes Nash was great last year and a legit MVP candidate, but that doesn't mean this year is the same way.

Last year the Heat were still contenders in the East and Shaq was probably the second best C in the league. Just because something happened last year doesn't mean it is the same this year.

Up until just recently I regarded Nash as the best PG in the league, but it's been obvious over the past few months that he isn't the top PG anymore and both Paul and Deron have passed him. His defense is getting worse, his point averages have been going down from January to now, his assist numbers have gone down since January, his TO's have been higher, and like I already showed, he is getting lit up by the best PG's in the league.

He's on the decline, yes he's still very good. But Deron Williams has been going the opposite direction with all of his stats going up.

And the truth is, that is more then half the season that Deron has been improving and Nash has been declining, that may not seem like a lot to you but when a young player is rising and an old players is declining like that it means something. That is a legit sample time to be looking at.

Nash in March was averaging a very respectable 17.6/9.9/3.1/0.4. Those are very good numbers.

But Deron Williams numbers in March were 19.6/13.3/3.4/1.1.

Deron Williams since the beginning of the year, and definitely right now has and is playing better basketball then Steve Nash in every aspect of the game.

[theoilslick]

Yes because 18 points and 9 assists is mediocre

That`s his average, but he`s had games against scrubs where he was far below that and they lost, hence mediocre. I`m just wondering why he underperforms against weaker teams; kind of a statistical aberration.

Just because something happened last year doesn't mean it is the same this year.

And just because something happens one month doesn`t mean you prorate to the entire year. There is also such a thing as being a flash of brilliance and then burning out (refer to Bibby). Many would pick Nash simply because he has been an established great point guard for several years, and this despite a sub-par month where you did not acknowledge any systemic adjustment due to the addition of Shaq, which would have inhibited Nash. The only one clinging here is you: it`s a lot closer than what you perceive it to be.

BTW, your numbers suggest D-Will was actually turning the ball over more than Nash in March, which is one of Nash`s critical faults this season (as well as D-Will`s, as they are in the top 3 for TO`s per game.

[Duiz]

Compare this by team...

http://www.82games.com/0708/0708PHO5.HTM

Deron Williams PER - 21.0, Opponent PG - 15.8

Steve Nash PER - 20.9, Opponent PG - 18.0

Steve Nash is still romanticized as the great point guard, and people aren't ready to get off the tissues and realize that Deron is simply better. I am not saying PER is everything, but it sure makes the point that we are making.

So for kicks and giggles...

Jason Kidd PER - 18.6, Opponent PG - 15.9

[Doctor MJ]

And by the way, Nash fans, quit clinging to what happened last year with Nash. When players get older, they start to fall off. Yes Nash was great last year and a legit MVP candidate, but that doesn't mean this year is the same way.

Alright I'll put it to you then:

Will you concede that Nash was clearly a better player last year than Deron is now?

[Doctor MJ]

Compare this by team...

http://www.82games.com/0708/0708PHO5.HTM

Deron Williams PER - 21.0, Opponent PG - 15.8

Steve Nash PER - 20.9, Opponent PG - 18.0

Steve Nash is still romanticized as the great point guard, and people aren't ready to get off the tissues and realize that Deron is simply better. I am not saying PER is everything, but it sure makes the point that we are making.

So for kicks and giggles...

Jason Kidd PER - 18.6, Opponent PG - 15.9

Nope, PER, and especially opponent's PER is most certainly nothing like "everything". Glad we agree.

[carrottop12]

-= original quote snipped =-



Alright I'll put it to you then:

Will you concede that Nash was clearly a better player last year than Deron is now?

Absolutely, Nash in his prime is a better player then Deron is right now by a good margin, I am not arguing that at all. Nash was a legit MVP candidate 3 years in a row and locked himself into the HOF in the past three seasons. Deron isn't at that point right now, but all I am saying is Nash isn't there anymore either.

[Doctor MJ]

-= original quote snipped =-



Absolutely, Nash in his prime is a better player then Deron is right now by a good margin, I am not arguing that at all. Nash was a legit MVP candidate 3 years in a row and locked himself into the HOF in the past three seasons. Deron isn't at that point right now, but all I am saying is Nash isn't there anymore either.

Interesting. Well, personally while I'd call Nash's best year 04-05, I don't see a big drop off since then, but if you do, then it makes sense that a lot of my arguments don't resonate with you.

[Duiz]

-= original quote snipped =-



Interesting. Well, personally while I'd call Nash's best year 04-05, I don't see a big drop off since then, but if you do, then it makes sense that a lot of my arguments don't resonate with you.

Doctor MJ, stats don't lie, and while they don't tell the whole story, they tell a big part of the story.

Steve Nash is head to head this season, but Deron has averaged even more double doubles proving to be more consistent. Also Deron hasn't missed games due to injury. Unlike Nash who keeps dropping his assists numbers, Deron keeps raising them.