All Time teams -- Philly v. New York

[penbeast0]

These are the franchises with the 3rd and 4th highest number of appearances (and 2nd and 3rd number of losses) in the NBA finals. Putting together the greatest team for each franchise, who would win a 7 game championship series (using players at the peak level they played at FOR THAT FRANCHISE)?

Philadelphia 76ers (Syracuse Nats)

Wilt (note that you don't use the 50 pt/game year with the Warriors)
Moses
Dolph Schayes
Barkley
Bobby Jones
Erving
Cunningham
Chet Walker
Iggy
Greer
Toney
Iverson
Horncek
Cheeks
etc.

New York Knicks

Bellamy
Willis Reed
Ewing
DeBusschere
Charles Oakley
Bernard King
Dick Van Arsdale
Allan Houston
Earl Monroe
Dick Barnett
Richie Guerin
Michael Ray Richardson
Walt Frazier
Stephen Marbury
etc.

[kooldude]

why is Marbury there?


I'll take Philly because of Wilt.

[philbe311]

I quickly though Chamerlin / Malone and though the sixers in a landslide, but than realized the Knicks could throw Ewing and Reed at you... I still go sixers, but it's fairly close...

What would the starting 5's be?

[penbeast0]

Well, since Reed played some PF next to Bellamy when he came into the league, Ewing/Reed/Debusshere would give the Knicks three players that need to be guarded away from the basket, something Wilt and Moses didn't like to do. I'd probably start the following:

Philly

Wilt/Moses
B.Jones (for defense and spacing)/Barkley/Schayes
Erving/Cunningham
Greer/Hornacek/Iguolada
Cheeks/Iverson (perfect role for Iverson as pace changer off the bench and all the wings have excellent ballhandling skills)

Knicks

Ewing/Bellamy/McAdoo
Reed/DeBusshere/Oakley
King/DeBusschere/Van Arsdale
Monroe/Houston/Van Arsdale
Frazier/Richardson

[Hard2dhole]

Sixers in 6. Just a feeling.

[wigglestrue]

Well, since Reed played some PF next to Bellamy when he came into the league, Ewing/Reed/Debusshere would give the Knicks three players that need to be guarded away from the basket, something Wilt and Moses didn't like to do. I'd probably start the following:

Philly

Wilt/Moses
B.Jones (for defense and spacing)/Barkley/Schayes
Erving/Cunningham
Greer/Hornacek/Iguolada
Cheeks/Iverson (perfect role for Iverson as pace changer off the bench and all the wings have excellent ballhandling skills)

Knicks

Ewing/Bellamy/McAdoo
Reed/DeBusshere/Oakley
King/DeBusschere/Van Arsdale
Monroe/Houston/Van Arsdale
Frazier/Richardson

Since these all-time teams will probably use short rotations, I'd go with...

C: Wilt
PF: Moses/Cunningham
SF: Barkley/Jones
SG: Erving/Greer
PG: Iverson/Cheeks

C: Ewing
PF: Reed/Bellamy
SF: King/Debusschere
SG: Monroe/Houston
PG: Frazier/Richardson

Are you kidding me? Sixers in 4 games, 5 maximum.

[penbeast0]

Actually, that Philly team has zero spacing, poor outside shooting and weak defense (since Wilt and Moses won't go out and chase Ewing and Reed while Barkley and Iverson are going to schooled consistently). Great talent, terrible mix of players Wiggles; you have to work as a team and that team wouldn't.

I can see a coach putting Moses in the starting lineup, I'm probably one of the few that feel that Bobby Jones would contribute more to that team than Moses or Barkley at PF but you need outside shooting to open things up for Wilt/Moses/Barkley/Doc/Cunningham to operate since they all worked best inside . . . to say nothing of Iverson trying to throw himself into the basket with 4 of those guys trying to post smaller guys. Vanna, I'd like to buy a clue?

[wigglestrue]

Actually, that Philly team has zero spacing, poor outside shooting and weak defense (since Wilt and Moses won't go out and chase Ewing and Reed while Barkley and Iverson are going to schooled consistently). Great talent, terrible mix of players Wiggles; you have to work as a team and that team wouldn't.

The sheer talent overwhelms any team concept you can come up with.

I can see a coach putting Moses in the starting lineup, I'm probably one of the few that feel that Bobby Jones would contribute more to that team than Moses or Barkley at PF but you need outside shooting to open things up for Wilt/Moses/Barkley/Doc/Cunningham to operate since they all worked best inside . . . to say nothing of Iverson trying to throw himself into the basket with 4 of those guys trying to post smaller guys. Vanna, I'd like to buy a clue?

Yeah, no. They wouldn't need space, they'd absolutely dominate space or no space. Physically. Period. Not one of the Knicks big men could contain any of the Sixers big men alone. And there's no way that Knicks team could double any of them, either, unless they wanted to lose by 30. Ewing and Reed will be free to shoot as many midrangers as they please, the Sixers will grab every single rebound.

[penbeast0]

A Sixer team of Wilt/B.Jones/Erving/Greer/Cheeks would beat a lineup of Wilt/Moses/Barkley/Erving/Iverson; even without moving Moses into the starting lineup like most people would.

Wilt would be more effective with extra spacing created by Jones and Greer's jump shooting plus the extra playmaking of Cheeks and Greer than he would be with 3 other post up scorers and a slasher who thinks shoot first.

Moses would dominate Bobby Jones in the low post (and on the boards) but he would have to face Wilt's help defense and defensive rebounding and Moses (unlike Jones) wasn't a good interior passer so he wouldn't be able to make Wilt pay for leaving Wilt.

Erving would be a good defensive matchup against Barkley who would also be in there getting in the way of Moses and facing Wilt's help defense and defensive rebounding so his great rebounding skills (and Erving's at the 2) would be lessened. On the other end, Barkley couldn't come close to handling Erving; he could hold position in the post but got burned on drives by far less impressive forwards than Dr. J consistently.

At guard, Greer was an excellent catch and shoot player adept at moving without the ball or creatig with it. Erving's strength defensively was his leaping ability and power, he was a better 4 defender than he was at the 2. Again, while Erving could post him and destroy him, there are already Wilt, Moses, and Barkley backing guys into the post calling for the ball.

And, finally, with 4 players out there posting up and calling for the ball (at least 3 anyway if Wilt decides he has to show his hig post passing instead which he would need to for this team to have any hope), who is there to get them the ball? Allen (but I need the ball to drive the hole) Iverson who didn't get his assists by passing into a post player but by driving and dishing if he saw an open jump shooter and the defense was collapsing. Cheeks may not be the scorer Iverson was but he is more than capable of harassing Iverson into mistakes when Iverson is trying to bring the ball up with only bigs to help and able to score at a very efficient clip especially against Iverson's weak defense.

It isn't whether they would beat the Knicks; it's whether you are using your resources to their max Wiggles. Cheeks and Greer is a much better fit than Iverson and Barkley (and I believe Bobby Jones is too since with Wilt and Erving you aren't going to be outrebounded very often).