Say hello to your #1 pick in the 2008 NBA Draft....

[bill curley II]

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He is not an every down back. But, you are convientely forgetting his sick recieving numbers out of the backfield. Something a Texans team with one good reciver could have used. Bush is a huge upgrade over Ahman Green, and Bush has not even scratched the surface.

So it's smart to use a number 1 pick on a 3rd down back? And what sick receiving numbers? Guy averaged 5.7 yds a catch, a long of 25 yds last year. Also, he fumbled 7 times last year, which is an extraordinarily high number considering the number of touches he got.

[Cruel_Ruin]

Wow, I didn't want to derail this thread...

BTW, the Texans have a long history of terrible draft picks.

[Cammo101]

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So it's smart to use a number 1 pick on a 3rd down back? And what sick receiving numbers? Guy averaged 5.7 yds a catch, a long of 25 yds last year. Also, he fumbled 7 times last year, which is an extraordinarily high number considering the number of touches he got.

Not being an up the middle every down back is way different than being a 3rd down back. How about the 100 plus catches in his rookie season, before he was forced into being the every down back when Duece got hurt.

[bill curley II]

He had 88 catches in his rookie year, and averaged a pedestrian 8.4 yds a catch. Number of catches for RB's are very overrated as well. It's a bad thing for the offense if you're RB have a high volume of catches for a low average.

Oh and even with Duece to soften up the defense, he had a 3.6 average running the ball. Reggie Bush is basically the Antoine Walker of football. He'll have the occassional big play, but needs an incredibly high volume of touches and is a very inefficient player.

Lastly, why would you pick a back that is neither an every down back nor a high average guy number one?

[Basileus777]

Reggie Bush has been a disappointment and is not as good of a player as Mario Williams, comparing Rose to him is not flattering.

[DanTown8587]

Reggie Bush: Incredibly talented college player, high expectations, does his secondary job (catching the ball out of the backfield) much better than his primary one (running the ball), not as good as many would think, still young though, not good at numerous things he needs to be (ball security, blocking, taking what the defense gives him), not top 30 at his position.

Yeah, Derrick Rose wishes he can be that good in the NBA.

[_BBIB_]

Nash lost Amare and still had them in the WCF. Marion done squat to help the Heat start winning. Not to mention Amare and Marion weren't actually on there way to greatness before Nash.

Effiency is not a very good stat. NOt really sure why you continue to use it. PFs and Cs should be more efficient than a PG. Guards have the ball a lot more. They often have the ball when the shot clock goes down. They don't get easy hoops off rebounds. They don't get as many easy rebounds. Its relatively a stat made for big players.

They made the WCF a season where Marion was pretty *gasp* EFFICIENT
Led the team in every statistical category except assists.

No stat is perfect but efficiency by far is the best one in sports.


First of all, it's a way to compare players of all different positions and usually the leaders at the top are players considered the premiere players in the league. Same with all-time rankings.


And common sense tells you that someone who is atop all those categories like I listed, is a pretty freaking important piece to a team

[Doctor MJ]

They made the WCF a season where Marion was pretty *gasp* EFFICIENT
Led the team in every statistical category except assists.

No stat is perfect but efficiency by far is the best one in sports.


First of all, it's a way to compare players of all different positions and usually the leaders at the top are players considered the premiere players in the league. Same with all-time rankings.


And common sense tells you that someone who is atop all those categories like I listed, is a pretty freaking important piece to a team

Everything you say is true, but he's right that the stat is biased against point guards.

[Paydro70]

Are we talking about PER here? If so I'm not sure why you should think the stat is biased against PGs, it's usually fairly even between positions. This year, for instance, there are 7 PGs at about 20 PER, 6 Cs, 9 PFs, 5 SFs, and 7 SGs. Seems pretty even, to me, and I don't really feel like there are any more elite PGs than any other position.

[richboy]

[quote="_BBIB_"][/quote]

You can be pretty damn efficient when Nash is setting you up for wide open looks. Nothing against Marion but even saying he the reason for the Suns success is ridiculous. He can't create his own shot. You don't run plays for him. He doesn't command a double team. Why are we talking about Marion. The only play and player that is consistently double teamed on the Suns is Nash and the pick-n-roll. Especially during his MVP years. Everyone else played off that. Giving Marion credit for there success. Marion is pretty much a glorified role player.

Effiency is a horrible stat. You throw it around like well this proves it. Effiency says Chris Kaman is one of the 15 best players in the league. Would you rather have Shawn Marion or Manu Ginobili. Dang Marion is better than Dwade, Nash, and much better than Tmac. You don't need effiency to tell whats right in front of the eyes. Marion is the third best player on any good team.

[Doctor MJ]

Are we talking about PER here? If so I'm not sure why you should think the stat is biased against PGs, it's usually fairly even between positions. This year, for instance, there are 7 PGs at about 20 PER, 6 Cs, 9 PFs, 5 SFs, and 7 SGs. Seems pretty even, to me, and I don't really feel like there are any more elite PGs than any other position.

The undisputable part that is PER specific is the assumption that all players assisted in their scoring equally overrates players who are reliant on others, and underrates those who aren't. Point guards are thus at the extreme end of things.

Beyond that, of any of the positions, it is the floor general whose impact is most distributed across all teammates and hence a box score stat can't help but overrate the teammates, and underrate the floor general.

[richboy]

Bbib I believe is referring to regular effiency. Not PER but the old effiency that you see on NBA.com.

[Doctor MJ]

Bbib I believe is referring to regular effiency. Not PER but the old effiency that you see on NBA.com.

I see. Well to me PER is clearly the superior stat.

[Paydro70]

Oh... regular efficiency is terrible, if for no other reason than it isn't pace adjusted, though there are plenty of other reasons (weirdly thinking all stats have the same value, for instance).

[_BBIB_]

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Everything you say is true, but he's right that the stat is biased against point guards.

Maybe a little but look at how high Chris Paul ranks.

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You can be pretty damn efficient when Nash is setting you up for wide open looks. Nothing against Marion but even saying he the reason for the Suns success is ridiculous. He can't create his own shot. You don't run plays for him. He doesn't command a double team. Why are we talking about Marion. The only play and player that is consistently double teamed on the Suns is Nash and the pick-n-roll. Especially during his MVP years. Everyone else played off that. Giving Marion credit for there success. Marion is pretty much a glorified role player.

Effiency is a horrible stat. You throw it around like well this proves it. Effiency says Chris Kaman is one of the 15 best players in the league. Would you rather have Shawn Marion or Manu Ginobili. Dang Marion is better than Dwade, Nash, and much better than Tmac. You don't need effiency to tell whats right in front of the eyes. Marion is the third best player on any good team.

So Steve Nash sets Marion up for steals, blocks, and rebounds too?

And Chris Kaman is pretty dang good this year. Don't know which games you've been watching

[richboy]

Marion can get all the steals blocks and rebounds he wants he still a mediocre defender at the PF position. The Suns still weren't a very good defensive team. The fact is unless I been living in a box the Suns won games because they sported one of the best offensive teams ever during the Nash MVP years. You honestly giving credit for Marion for doing that. A guy you can't even run a play for.

Amare is a great talent but he is the definition of someone that doesn't make players around him better. If you built an offense around Amare you have Amare going one on one most of the game and everyone else wondering when he going to pass the ball. I don't want to think what would happen if Amare had to get the ball in traditional PF spots and pass out of double teams.

[mandurugo]

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Have you even watched the Suns this season?

Yes.

[mandurugo]

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That could have been said about Amare like four years ago, but thats just stupid since he came back from Micro fracture surgery and definitely doesn't play that way since Shaq came on board. I mean, do you watch basketball at all or just make idiotic statements.

I do watch basketball. I don't make idiotic statements, those are obviously your department.

[mandurugo]

I honestly don't think people have watched him this year.

To say that he's not only not a superstar but not even an upper echelon PF is beyond ignorance.

The fantasy that Steve Nash makes him who he is is a joke.

These points would be a great addition to the discussion - if anyone had said them. But tearing down strawman arguments doesn't demonstrate that Amare is the best offensive big man in the game. I still don't think he is - would any of you care to advance an argument in his favor?

[hard49]

He is the highest scoring and most efficient scoring PF in the league.

Who do you say is better?