The Chicago Bulls and their struggles

[Celtsfan1980]

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From reports:
Bulls offered Tyson Chandler, Luol Deng and the pick that became Lamarcus Aldridge for KG. They were turned down. If Boston wins a title, Kevin McHale deserves a ring.

I'd be curious about this report you're reading. I wish people stopped blaming McHale on everything.
Fact:A lot of people are involved in making the decision, far more than just McHale.
Fact:McHale has stated a lot of GM's lied about what was offered. There was an article about this on the Timberwolves board.
Fact:Garnett made the decision to go to Boston. It's as much his responsibility as anyone's. My understanding is Kobe didn't want the trade when he heard Deng wasn't going to be his teammate and didn't feel they could compete for a Championship without Deng. Who is to say Garnett didn't have the same opinion?

[Friend_Of_Haley]

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I'd be curious about this report you're reading. I wish people stopped blaming McHale on everything.
Fact:A lot of people are involved in making the decision, far more than just McHale.
Fact:McHale has stated a lot of GM's lied about what was offered. There was an article about this on the Timberwolves board.
Fact:Garnett made the decision to go to Boston. It's as much his responsibility as anyone's. My understanding is Kobe didn't want the trade when he heard Deng wasn't going to be his teammate and didn't feel they could compete for a Championship without Deng. Who is to say Garnett didn't have the same opinion?

Its not really a matter of what Garnett's opinion was, he didn't have a no trade clause like Kobe. Now I believe he had to waive a trade kicker to make salaries work, but I'm not sure there would have been the same issue with the Bulls trade.

[Cliff Levingston]

In order of importance:

1. Coaching, and there's plenty of subsets to this. The first is Skiles' poor rotations. He admitted to having no method to the madness of placing players on the court. His solution for any turmoil was to put 3 small guards on the floor at once, sometimes 4. No one on the team ever knew what to expect in terms of playing time or what situation he'd be used in, and continuity and comfort (or rhythm rather) is big for basketball players. Lastly, guys who had no business being on the floor (Wallace, Nocioni and now Hughes) would get extended PT to the detriment of the team.

Next, our schemes on both sides of the ball had become stale. All you need to do is deny the passes to the wings and you'll have a good measure of success against the Bulls' base offense. We never ran back door plays to counteract that and never tried to utilize Tyrus' athleticism by throwing lobs. Defensively, we seemed to go away from utilizing help defense by the big men from the weak side, instead opting to use the guard help from the strong side. It allows the ball handler to see the double team coming and react accordingly. Not only that, but we double team anyone no matter what their skill level and it leaves shooters and cutters wide open quite often. For a team with as many good defenders as we have, we should be able to leave them on an island from time to time in order to not compromise the rest of the defense.

2. Ben Wallace. He must have some injuries going on because from last year to this one, he seems to have declined 10 times more than he did the year before. Anyway, he was dreadful all year for us which lead to the trade, and as noted earlier, he got way too many minutes for how badly he was playing. His complete offensive ineptitude and bad defense made it very hard to win games considering our general lack of offense anyway.

3. Expectations. This year was the first one for the young Bulls where anyone picked them to go the Eastern Conf. Finals, let alone the Finals. ICLO, there was a sense of entitlement there and they lost that underdog attitude that made them such a scrappy team. There's no way to quantify this or prove it, but ICLO, they just expected to sleepwalk their way to 50+ wins and they're simply not talented enough to do that.

The above combined with the trade rumors and the contract issues, the mental state of the team was all wrong from the start. ICLO, it helps to explain why nearly everyone on the team had much worse season than they did the year before.

Cliff Levingston isn't as worried as a lot of other people are. This year has been a firm reality check for everyone in the Bulls organization. The players know they have to work that hard and take the game very seriously to have success, and Paxson knows that the roster is far from being "complete." Also, this bad season exposed the coaching for what it was; not that good and certainly not championship level.

The biggest problem Cliff Levingston had with the construction of this team entering the season was the excess talent. We didn't need both Joe Smith and Andres Nocioni when we had Tyrus Thomas and Joakim Noah to develop in the front court and Thabo Sefolosha in the back court. As a result, it took about half the season for any one of those 3 to get PT. The only reason Thabo saw the floor was due to injuries to both Deng and Gordon, and Tyrus still hasn't seen the floor much at all. The Bulls are one of the only teams Cliff Levingston can remember that had 3 lottery picks within the last 2 years getting about a combined 15 MPG to start the season. All it does is hurt their trade value and hurt their progression.

[Celtsfan1980]

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Its not really a matter of what Garnett's opinion was, he didn't have a no trade clause like Kobe. Now I believe he had to waive a trade kicker to make salaries work, but I'm not sure there would have been the same issue with the Bulls trade.

He signed a long extension. Without it, teams would never have done the trade, and Boston wasn't willing to do it unless he signed the extension. It only makes sense.

[coldfish]

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I'd be curious about this report you're reading. I wish people stopped blaming McHale on everything.
Fact:A lot of people are involved in making the decision, far more than just McHale.
Fact:McHale has stated a lot of GM's lied about what was offered. There was an article about this on the Timberwolves board.
Fact:Garnett made the decision to go to Boston. It's as much his responsibility as anyone's. My understanding is Kobe didn't want the trade when he heard Deng wasn't going to be his teammate and didn't feel they could compete for a Championship without Deng. Who is to say Garnett didn't have the same opinion?

The report was from sam smith, so take it for what it was worth.

Garnett did not have a no trade clause like Kobe. Even if he did say no to Chicago, does that mean that Paxson screwed up?

Btw, that is my understanding of the Kobe deal also. Kobe had a list of players that had to stay on Chicago and LA had a list of players that had to be traded. At least Deng was on both lists.

[Scalabrine]

I dont think it was a fluke, poor play and shooting funks dont last a full season they just dont, I think there was just less motivation for them to play well and much less for them to prove, and they did owe the Knicks there draft picks the past two years so maybe that was even more motivation for them, if they come back next season with the same roster and they come in strong I think motivation is a huge factor.

Paxson should be fired since he has done a pretty bad job over his tenure as a Bulls GM given what tools he started with and where he is now. Other than the Heat the Bulls are easily the second biggest dissapointment of the season.

[Flash3]

I dont think it was a fluke, poor play and shooting funks dont last a full season they just dont, I think there was just less motivation for them to play well and much less for them to prove, and they did owe the Knicks there draft picks the past two years so maybe that was even more motivation for them, if they come back next season with the same roster and they come in strong I think motivation is a huge factor.

Paxson should be fired since he has done a pretty bad job over his tenure as a Bulls GM given what tools he started with and where he is now. Other than the Heat the Bulls are easily the second biggest dissapointment of the season.

Granted the Bulls came in with the hoopla and stuff surrounding them with the strong possibility of being one of the best teams in the league, they are by far the bigger disappointment.

But, a case can me made for both.

[CBS7]

I dont think it was a fluke, poor play and shooting funks dont last a full season they just dont, I think there was just less motivation for them to play well and much less for them to prove, and they did owe the Knicks there draft picks the past two years so maybe that was even more motivation for them, if they come back next season with the same roster and they come in strong I think motivation is a huge factor.

Paxson should be fired since he has done a pretty bad job over his tenure as a Bulls GM given what tools he started with and where he is now. Other than the Heat the Bulls are easily the second biggest dissapointment of the season.

Well if you're a poor player and a bad shooter then you don't play well or shoot well for an entire season either.

[CBS7]

The problem with the Bulls is that even their good players aren't all-star players, their just above average players. Of course they need an inside presence but at the same time someone like Ben Gordon isn't of the same calibre as players like Kobe, Wade, Ray, Iverson, Vince, and even Joe Johnson or Michael Redd. Then you got Deng who is also a good player but he isn't at the level of players like LeBron, Tracy, Pierce, Carmelo etc. So while both Gordon and Deng are good players, their just not all-star calibre franchise type players. They need someone to build that franchise around as well as getting someone who can play downlow.

There's another one.

[Friend_Of_Haley]

Paxson should be fired since he has done a pretty bad job over his tenure as a Bulls GM given what tools he started with and where he is now. Other than the Heat the Bulls are easily the second biggest disappointment of the season.

Paxson started with a lot of crap. It could have been worse, but don't fool yourself, he created the team that actually won anything, and created 4 lottery picks. (not by sucking)

This isn't a team with tons of lottery picks that has sucked the past four years, he got those picks, and the biggest asset he gave up was an overweight center who doesn't play defense or rebound. He actually lured good free agents to Chicago, and although it ended up being a mistake, he lured the top free agent from 2006. This is his 5th season, and only second that he has missed the playoffs, the first being a year in which he only had one off season to try and turn around a pitiful team that had just lost the previous years #2 pick forever.

He has some talent, but it was a lot of selfish players who never did crap. There were a lot of crap contracts too. He made a playoff team out of a bunch of losers.


This was the team he inherited at the end of 2003:

Jalen Rose $12,072,500 7-yr; 92.90M 2004-05 (p)
Eddie Robinson $5,687,000 6-yr; 31.02M 2005-06
Donyell Marshall $4,545,000 3-yr; 15.00M 2004-05
Tyson Chandler $3,556,200 4-yr; 15.47M 2003-04 (t)
Jay Williams $3,451,000 4-yr; 16.14M 2004-05 (t)
Marcus Fizer $2,946,240 4-yr; 11.99M 2003-04 (t)
Eddie Curry $2,879,280 4-yr; 12.53M 2003-04 (t)
Jamal Crawford $2,026,680 4-yr; 8.26M 2003-04 (t)
Corie Blount $1,400,000 1-yr; 1.40M 2002-03
Fred Hoiberg $1,400,000 3-yr; 3.40M 2002-03
Dalibor Bagaric $830,947 4-yr; 4.16M 2003-04 (t)
Rick Brunson $699,935 1-yr; 699,935 2002-03
Trenton Hassell $512,435 2-yr; 1.10M 2002-03 (t)
Lonny Baxter $349,458 1-yr; 349,458 2002-03
Roger Mason, Jr. $349,458 1-yr; 349,458 2002-03

I count 5 guys on that list that are actually contributing in this league, and another who's still around but doesn't actually play (Marshall)


I'll be the first admit he should be under the heat for fixing this team right now, but damn, he's been pretty damn successful. Like all GMs has his flaws, yea, but he's had more success.

[Celtsfan1980]

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The report was from sam smith, so take it for what it was worth.

Garnett did not have a no trade clause like Kobe. Even if he did say no to Chicago, does that mean that Paxson screwed up?

Btw, that is my understanding of the Kobe deal also. Kobe had a list of players that had to stay on Chicago and LA had a list of players that had to be traded. At least Deng was on both lists.

Does it make any sense to trade all of those players for two years of Garnett? Without the extension, that's all he would have played on Chicago. The Bulls may have been a 55 win team in the East, which is maybe a 50 win team in the West. They'd be good enough to make the ECF and maybe make the Championship, but probably would have been swept in the Championship if they made it that far. Garnett had to go on a team which could win a Championship and a trade that satisfies Minnesota's management, so I feel like it was a good trade for both teams.

I also heard reports that Randy Moss was planning on signing with the Packers, and that he was planning on playing with Culpepper. Both turned out to be false. I also heard reports that Cassell was planning on staying with the Clippers. I've heard enough reports which are false that I have a hard time believing them anymore.

[CBS7]

Just because it doesn't happen doesn't mean that it is false.

[Cliff Levingston]

How did this thread become about the Celtics?

[coldfish]

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Does it make any sense to trade all of those players for two years of Garnett? Without the extension, that's all he would have played on Chicago. The Bulls may have been a 55 win team in the East, which is maybe a 50 win team in the West. They'd be good enough to make the ECF and maybe make the Championship, but probably would have been swept in the Championship if they made it that far. Garnett had to go on a team which could win a Championship and a trade that satisfies Minnesota's management, so I feel like it was a good trade for both teams.

I also heard reports that Randy Moss was planning on signing with the Packers, and that he was planning on playing with Culpepper. Both turned out to be false. I also heard reports that Cassell was planning on staying with the Clippers. I've heard enough reports which are false that I have a hard time believing them anymore.

Of course, the reports may or may not be true. This discussion started because of comments about Paxson sitting on his hands. I was just trying to show that probably wasn't the case.

Again, results are all that matter, but with Gasol in particular, Chicago got hosed. Memphis was, by many, many reports, adamant that they get Gordon, Deng and PJ Brown's expiring deal for him in March 2007. A year later, they traded him for an expiring deal and some late picks when Chicago had no expiring deals.

The truth of Garnett likely will never be known, but given how often Paxson discussed KG in a round about way publicly, its obvious that Paxson wanted him.

The same can be said for Kobe. The truth will likely never come out, but Paxson and Reinsdorf himself demonstrated years ago that they *really* wanted Kobe, so its safe to assume that they pursued him heavily.

[Celtsfan1980]

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Of course, the reports may or may not be true. This discussion started because of comments about Paxson sitting on his hands. I was just trying to show that probably wasn't the case.

Again, results are all that matter, but with Gasol in particular, Chicago got hosed. Memphis was, by many, many reports, adamant that they get Gordon, Deng and PJ Brown's expiring deal for him in March 2007. A year later, they traded him for an expiring deal and some late picks when Chicago had no expiring deals.

The truth of Garnett likely will never be known, but given how often Paxson discussed KG in a round about way publicly, its obvious that Paxson wanted him.

The same can be said for Kobe. The truth will likely never come out, but Paxson and Reinsdorf himself demonstrated years ago that they *really* wanted Kobe, so its safe to assume that they pursued him heavily.

I feel bad for Chicago as far as the Gasol trade went. He's not very good defensively, so I'm not sure how much he helps. I definitely think they should be better than this, and there is talk that Thibideau could be their head coach next season. I expect them to turn it around. What was the reasoning behind trading the number 2 pick, which turned out to be Aldridge?

[coldfish]

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I feel bad for Chicago as far as the Gasol trade went. He's not very good defensively, so I'm not sure how much he helps. I definitely think they should be better than this, and there is talk that Thibideau could be their head coach next season. I expect them to turn it around. What was the reasoning behind trading the number 2 pick, which turned out to be Aldridge?

Paxson was getting hammered at the time for always taking "safe" picks. Deng, Gordon, Hinrich. He went out and took the project in the class, who also was the most athletic guy.

[Baseline Runner]

1. players are not 100% healthy
2.^defense regressed
3. perimeter oriented team (No easy basket)
4. undersized back court
5. No leader
6. lack of inside presence
7. no player on the bulls demands a frequent double team.(no true superstar to take the pressure off the role players)
8.lack of playmaking ability on offense. on a consistent basis

In other words they flat out suck.

[Optimus_Steel]

The Bulls had terrible chemistry & effort from the beggining of the year. Thats why i dont think this season was a fluke for them.