MVP Watch 2008... Part 5

[ILikeTheGrizz]

All-Defense covers the disparity in offensive production? You never answered me on the other thread: If a great offensive player will consistently get his on a great defensive player, it's clearly better to be a great offensive player instead of a great defensive player. If it's better to be one thing than to be another, that clearly means that one thing is more important that that other thing, no? So, ipso facto, individual offense is more important than individual defense. They're not weighed equally. Class is over for tonight, I think. I'm finishing this smoke and I'm out.

Be glad Bgil, Kobe not only will probably win the MVP this year but, as things are, deserves it too. Don't stretch for what you can't reach, it'll only disappoint you.

[shobe_81]

Why are you guys going off-topic and avoiding this whole MVP thing?

The fact remains, Kobe has been a top player for a decade so stop this oh well one player out-performed Kobe in this blah blah season!

Oh and if you've been watching ESPN (or lets say BSPN) for the past 2 hours, you'll notice, they haven't shown ONE HIGHLIGHT of the Hornets vs. Kings game!

I wonder why

[Doctor MJ]

-= original quote snipped =-



I really have no idea how you can say that. Not that other SG seasons this decade way outclass Kobe's this year, but they have a rather clear advantage. Regardless, it doesn't matter as CP's is maybe the best for a PG ever.

Individual production= CP.

Dealing with injuries while being a good team= Kobe.

Tie-breaker=Awesomely enough, right now is tied. Although if they ended this way I'd give it to Kobe.

Give me the SG season you want to compare, and I'll give my thoughts.

Paul's having a hell of a box score stat season. He is however not that impressive in +/- stats for example. Very good yes, but not as impressive as Kobe.

[ILikeTheGrizz]

shobe, stop trying to play a martyr. Again, Kobe was an ASG starter when he couldn't start on his own team. There's no conspiracy against him. Just stop.

[ILikeTheGrizz]

-= original quote snipped =-



Give me the SG season you want to compare, and I'll give my thoughts.

Kobe 05-06. Wade 05-06. Wade 06-07, although you can call GUP (Game Under Protest) because he was hurt for alot of it, but when he played... and TMac 02-03. And Kobe 02-03.

[shobe_81]

Who cares, you guys can make your own thread about that!

Right now, this is the MVP thread for this year right?

Can we get back on topic?

Ok, so If Lakers win tomorrow, Kobe should win the MVP.

But if Lakers lose and Hornets win their remaining games, Paul might have a case although he hasn't performed well lately (well shooting wise).

[Doctor MJ]

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I'm talking more from an individual perspective, Kobe basically dominated that season, and had one of the most historic seasons ever. I mean honestly from a team concept what more could he have done in the western conference with a young, inexperienced, and talentless team that year?

He shot a lot at reasonable but not impressive %, and his defense went to hell. +/- was good, but certainly not off the charts. All with a supporting cast that I don't see how you could think is clearly weaker than what he's had when Bynum & Gasol are out. Meh.

Kobe to me, is as you would expect, at his most impressive when he's going on those 50+ point binges. However, he's never able to pull them off consistently, and the high risk element of his game that allows such amazing displays leads to a lot of waste. Bottom line, when Kobe's not in the zone, he's at his most valuable when he's trusting his teammates and he's on pace for 25-30ppg instead of 30-35.

[shobe_81]

So... should we start talking about MVP again guys?

[Doctor MJ]

-= original quote snipped =-



Kobe 05-06. Wade 05-06. Wade 06-07, although you can call GUP (Game Under Protest) because he was hurt for alot of it, but when he played... and TMac 02-03. And Kobe 02-03.

See my response about Kobe 05-06. Kobe 02-03 had a prime Shaq and they only won 50 games, no way. Wade 06-07 was a partial season, not worthy of discussion. McGrady leading a team to mediocrity in a weak east? Nah.

Now, Wade 05-06 does indeed surpass what Kobe's done so far, but because of his playoff performance. Kobe's regular season surpasses Wade's regular season this year.

EDIT: btw, if you're factoring in playoff performance, 04-05 Nash beats what Paul's done so far this year hand's down.

[LakersSquad]

Uh..look at LeBron's stats and wins...look at the amount of shots Kobe took to get those points...it was a great season, but he could've done more. Like, say, be LeBron.

You mean pad stats? or take off 6 games for a bruised pinky? Or lead his team to 42 wins? Or or manage to hold back talented teammates and force them to be spot up shooters? I dunno which one of these should Kobe be doing?

[Original Baller]

-= original quote snipped =-

Regardless, I do think this year is Kobe's most impressive, and the most impressive of any SG this decade.

whaat???

I guess we just see the game different. This hasn't even been close to Kobe's best year IMO. He's been great no doubt and the best player in the league but '05-'06, '02-'03, and the 2nd half of '06-'07 were much better IMO. This year hasn't understandably had to do much cause he's had help finally BUT '05-'06 was the BEST season I've ever seen in my life by a basketball player. (Note that I started watching basketball consistently from '97-present)

To each his own but I'm not personally impressed by a great player who controls the game and dominates when he needs to. I personally prefer total dominance at all time. Thats what '05-'06 was for Kobe. He was so tuned into just dominating his opponent but scoring that 40 seemed so effortless.

Kobe's the MVP but '05-'06 was his best season bar none. If you adjust for pace it was more impressive than Jordan's 37ppg and considering the era Wilt played in, one could legitimately argue that it was the most impressive scoring season in NBA history.

[Bgil]

All-Defense covers the disparity in offensive production?

And then some. The difference in individual box score production is what? 2 points? (*) Not to mention all the would-be dunks and layups (assists see dunk/close stats posted on previous page) that turn into free-throws and don't show up on Kobe's box score? Notice that Kobe has the largest +/- gap (**) between him and his second best teammate of any player in the NBA.
You think all defensive team vs average to poor defense is worth less than that? 2 points?
* Assists are technically "team offense" not individual offense as it can not be accomplished without another player in any circumstance. Since you're isolating "individual defense" then it's only fair to isolate "individual offense".
** +/- accounts for all offensive and defensive production including that which shows up in the box score and that which does not (like my dunk/close-free throw example). Measuring the gap between players on the same team shows the "impact" of a player in isolation (as much as possible).

You never answered me on the other thread: If a great offensive player will consistently get his on a great defensive player,

I never answered because you make logical leaps of faith then turn around and try to attack me with (erroneous) logical rhetoric. The premise above is the basis for your whole argument and you haven't provided ANY proof of it's factuality. It's pretty easy to prove you wrong with examples:

Lebron vs Bruce Bowen - 2007 NBA Finals
22ppg .356% shooting, .200% 3pt, 6.8 assists and 5.75 turnovers

Dirk vs James Posey and Udonis Haslem - 2006 NBA Finals
22ppg on .390% fg and .250% 3pt

Jordan vs Gary Payton - 1995 NBA Finals
27.3ppg on 41.5%

Kobe vs Tayshaun Prince - 2004 NBA Finals
22.6 on .381 and .174

CP3 vs Deron Williams:
12.3ppg on .306 and .125 with 9.6 assists

On the same point; regardless of whether or not an offensive player can "get his" on a defensive player it stands to reason (by definition) that the offensive player will get less on a superior defensive player and get more on the weaker offensive player. There's your difference in production right there. But it continues...

it's clearly better to be a great offensive player instead of a great defensive player.

KOBE IS BOTH. Wade, T-Mac, AI, and Lebron are not. Being a great offensive player and NOT a great defensive player (Lebron, T-Mac, AI etc.) is clearly inferior to being a great offensive player AND a great defensive player (Kobe) at the same time.
Again, refer to the reason Jordan was so great was that he was great on both ends. Other players like Wilt and Dantley (Bird?) had put up many equal or better offensive seasons without matching the defensive powess of Jordan.
Same goes for Kobe. None of the players we have discussed can limit opposing player's (or opposing team's) production as well as Kobe, period.

If it's better to be one thing than to be another, that clearly means that one thing is more important that that other thing, no?

Yes. It is better to be BOTH things than only one of those things.

So, ipso facto, individual offense is more important than individual defense. They're not weighed equally.

By virtue of the premises being untrue the conclusion is untrue. Further invalidating your reasoning, Kobe is an elite help and team defender as well. Your verbal slight of hand is an attempt to pigen hole All-D team selections (recognition of elite defensive impact and powess) into "Individual defense" as opposed to "Total Defense".

There's also the issue of offense being a relative given in the NBA and defense being the separating factor. For instance, the Cavs are offensively similar to last season but their defense has declined and therefore they have dropped in the league's rankings. Denver is also a superior offensive team to the Lakers but the Lakers defensive superiority makes up for the difference in offense and makes them a superior team.

Class is over for tonight, I think. I'm finishing this smoke and I'm out.

You've clearly toked enough to last you a lifetime.

[lunatic4jc]

Why are you guys going off-topic and avoiding this whole MVP thing?

The fact remains, Kobe has been a top player for a decade so stop this oh well one player out-performed Kobe in this blah blah season!

Oh and if you've been watching ESPN (or lets say BSPN) for the past 2 hours, you'll notice, they haven't shown ONE HIGHLIGHT of the Hornets vs. Kings game!

I wonder why

dont worry.. any one who is concerned about the MVP race, much less the media voters, knows that the hornets lost and CP3 shot 4-13 FG.

[Bgil]

[quote="Original Baller"][/quote]

I would be perfectly happy to never again have to see Jekyl and Hyde Kobe passing the ball to a fault in the first three quarters and bombing away to a fault in the 4th. That hasn't happened AT ALL this season. He's playing the smartest ball of his career by far.

His defense is also several times better than it's been at least since the "handcheck rule" came into affect. In fact, I'd say it's one of the best overall (help, team, and man-to-man) defensive performances of any perimeter player since then. Can't think of anyone perimeter player who's eilite at all three categories of defense besides Kobe (used to be AK47 but he fell off massively). Maybe Josh Smith? His man-to-man is unimpressive from what I've seen though.

Kobe's also one of the only perimeter player in the league with a Shaq-like offensive presence (the other is Nash IMO). This season defenses have shaded him so much that several of our guys are shooting career highs (Odom and Gasol most notably) mainly because they're the recipients of easy dunks and layups off cutting through the open spots and rotating the ball to an open man under the basket. Check this out:

Gasol -
Dunks
LAL - 15% dunks, .971 efg, 93% assisted
MEM '08 - 10%, .944, 76% assisted
MEM '07- 10% Dunks, .965efg, 77% assisted
MEM '06 - 12% dunks, .913 efg, 71 % assisted
MEM '05 - 14% dunks, .865 efg, 82% assisted

close stats:
LAL '08 - 47% close, .571 efg, 54% assisted
Memphis:
34% close, .548, 45% assisted
33% close, .562 efg, 36% assisted
40% close, .520efg, 45% assisted

Even Odom's numbers are ridiculous compared to his previous seasons:
Dunk 9% dunk .899 efg 89% assisted

Hell, are they're any other players in the league that have higher percentage of dunks assisted? Chandler only gets 82%. Marion is at 84% (a ridiculous 90% assisted on close shots though), Shaq is at 73%, Ben Wallace at 82%, Kenyon at 84%, Amare at 78%. Marion hit 88% a few seasons back but otherwise I don't think anyone else has even been close.

89% and 93% is basically off the charts. And the Lakers have two players doing it. What's even crazier is that most of the people with really high numbers have it because they CAN'T create their own offense (Chandler, Marion, Kenyon Wallace) while Lamar and Gasol clearly can but don't have to. Sick.

So yes, this is easily his best season.

[JordansBulls]

This should clear up the MVP debate

Source: NYPost

MVP - I can go with either Kobe Bryant or Chris Paul and have done so repeatedly over the last few weeks on NBATV. Because I cannot make up my mind, I'm choosing whichever player takes his team higher in the Western Conference.

First or second, Kobe is well worth the price of admission or staying up until 1 a.m. on the East Coast 95 percent of the time, as long as you don't mind his man scoring nearly as many as he does. His stats and perfect attendance are sensational (28.5 points, 6.4 rebounds and 5.4 assists) considering he didn't allow a tumultuously negative offseason (of his own design) affect his game.

At the same time, he is not solely responsible for the Lakers' soaring in the standings. Yes, he makes teammates better, but they deserve a lot of credit, too, for improving (Andrew Bynum, a prime example) on their own, and the incoming player (Pau Gasol) made Kobe better. Furthermore, if Bryant wasn't setting up perimeter shooters and drivers for dunks, Lamar Odom is almost as capable. Contrary to popular distortion Kobe does not deserve this honor based on Lifetime Achievement, but strictly on this simonized season. Only once in 11 previous seasons (eight spent alongside Shaquille O'Neal) was he so much as a legitimate candidate, and Steve Nash simply outdid him.

Paul, on the other hand, is responsible for just about every thought and deed leading to a Hornets basket - his own, a team top 21.2 points, and teammates, 11.5 dimes, an inhuman 4.6-to-1 assist-turnover ratio. That adds up to nearly 44 points per game, five more than Kobe. Plus, Paul is the NBA's steal leader. Who knew Wake Forest would be such a hotbed after Tim Duncan, Muggsy Bogues, Len Chappell and Billy Packer left town?

[G35]

This should clear up the MVP debate

Source: NYPost

MVP - I can go with either Kobe Bryant or Chris Paul and have done so repeatedly over the last few weeks on NBATV. Because I cannot make up my mind, I'm choosing whichever player takes his team higher in the Western Conference.

First or second, Kobe is well worth the price of admission or staying up until 1 a.m. on the East Coast 95 percent of the time, as long as you don't mind his man scoring nearly as many as he does. His stats and perfect attendance are sensational (28.5 points, 6.4 rebounds and 5.4 assists) considering he didn't allow a tumultuously negative offseason (of his own design) affect his game.

At the same time, he is not solely responsible for the Lakers' soaring in the standings. Yes, he makes teammates better, but they deserve a lot of credit, too, for improving (Andrew Bynum, a prime example) on their own, and the incoming player (Pau Gasol) made Kobe better. Furthermore, if Bryant wasn't setting up perimeter shooters and drivers for dunks, Lamar Odom is almost as capable. Contrary to popular distortion Kobe does not deserve this honor based on Lifetime Achievement, but strictly on this simonized season. Only once in 11 previous seasons (eight spent alongside Shaquille O'Neal) was he so much as a legitimate candidate, and Steve Nash simply outdid him.

Paul, on the other hand, is responsible for just about every thought and deed leading to a Hornets basket - his own, a team top 21.2 points, and teammates, 11.5 dimes, an inhuman 4.6-to-1 assist-turnover ratio. That adds up to nearly 44 points per game, five more than Kobe. Plus, Paul is the NBA's steal leader. Who knew Wake Forest would be such a hotbed after Tim Duncan, Muggsy Bogues, Len Chappell and Billy Packer left town?

I read that this morning.

Peter Vescey ehhhh, I like Rosen better than Vescey......

[Bgil]

This should clear up the MVP debate

Source: NYPost

MVP - I can go with either Kobe Bryant or Chris Paul and have done so repeatedly over the last few weeks on NBATV. Because I cannot make up my mind, I'm choosing whichever player takes his team higher in the Western Conference.

First or second, Kobe is well worth the price of admission or staying up until 1 a.m. on the East Coast 95 percent of the time, as long as you don't mind his man scoring nearly as many as he does. His stats and perfect attendance are sensational (28.5 points, 6.4 rebounds and 5.4 assists) considering he didn't allow a tumultuously negative offseason (of his own design) affect his game.

At the same time, he is not solely responsible for the Lakers' soaring in the standings. Yes, he makes teammates better, but they deserve a lot of credit, too, for improving (Andrew Bynum, a prime example) on their own, and the incoming player (Pau Gasol) made Kobe better. Furthermore, if Bryant wasn't setting up perimeter shooters and drivers for dunks, Lamar Odom is almost as capable. Contrary to popular distortion Kobe does not deserve this honor based on Lifetime Achievement, but strictly on this simonized season. Only once in 11 previous seasons (eight spent alongside Shaquille O'Neal) was he so much as a legitimate candidate, and Steve Nash simply outdid him.

Paul, on the other hand, is responsible for just about every thought and deed leading to a Hornets basket - his own, a team top 21.2 points, and teammates, 11.5 dimes, an inhuman 4.6-to-1 assist-turnover ratio. That adds up to nearly 44 points per game, five more than Kobe. Plus, Paul is the NBA's steal leader. Who knew Wake Forest would be such a hotbed after Tim Duncan, Muggsy Bogues, Len Chappell and Billy Packer left town?

The assist to turnover ratio is the only thing that seems to impact the game though. NOH is an slightly above average scoring team and an average assisting team. Their fg% is above average but not elite. Their 3pt shooting is great but that's got little to due with Paul and can mostly be attributed to Peja.

Interestingly enough, Paul's adjusted +/- is 0.76 which is not notable for any reason except that it's so low. His steals are the result of gambling that make the Hornets 6.5 points per 100 possessions better defensively when he's OFF THE COURT.

http://basketballvalue.com/teamplayers. ... 8&team=NOH

[JordansBulls]

While I'll be equally as happy weather Paul or Kobe gets MVP, I feel that it should go to the guy who shoots a better fg% than his teams average.

[ILikeTheGrizz]

never answered because you make logical leaps of faith then turn around and try to attack me with (erroneous) logical rhetoric. The premise above is the basis for your whole argument and you haven't provided ANY proof of it's factuality. It's pretty easy to prove you wrong with examples:

Lebron vs Bruce Bowen - 2007 NBA Finals
22ppg .356% shooting, .200% 3pt, 6.8 assists and 5.75 turnovers

Dirk vs James Posey and Udonis Haslem - 2006 NBA Finals
22ppg on .390% fg and .250% 3pt

Jordan vs Gary Payton - 1995 NBA Finals
27.3ppg on 41.5%

Kobe vs Tayshaun Prince - 2004 NBA Finals
22.6 on .381 and .174

CP3 vs Deron Williams:
12.3ppg on .306 and .125 with 9.6 assists

You just showed me some great exceptions to the rule. Do I need to show you many more examples of great defensive players getting smoked, or can you accept this obvious truism? Just let me know.

If it's better to be one thing than to be another, that clearly means that one thing is more important that that other thing, no?

Yes.

There we go.

So now it's just a game of degrees. If TMac's season in 02-03 was ALOT more efficient that Kobe's this year- and it was- than you'd contend that Kobe's defense more than makes up for, and I just don't see it. I'm not feeling you famioly. And I don't think most people are either. Of course, Laker fans do .

You've clearly toked enough to last you a lifetime.

You don't toke a cigarette dude.

Doctor MJ, as far as performance on the court goes, getting to the playoffs or not is mainly a team thing. That historic TMac year, his team won 42 games and he missed seven of them. One slightly better player and they 5 or 6 more. Two slightly better players they might win nine more. He gets that, wins 51 games and then he 'had a better season'? What if he gets Pau Gasol, does the exact same ****, and wins 56? Then was his performance good enough? He had a season for the ages regardless. Same, to lesser extent, for Kobe and LeBron in 05-06. Those and Wade's championship season are rather clearly better than Kobe this year. Maybe Kobe's 02-03.

I'm not gonna fault a player for his teammates- I'm just looking at seasons, not dishing out MVPs. I'm not gonna say "Oh, to have a great season you really would've needed David West instead Pat Garrity on your team." That's just silly.




You've clearly toked enough to last you a lifetime.[/quote]

[Sedale Threatt]

"This should clear up the MVP debate," followed by a Peter Vescey article.

It is now official. I have truly seen it all.