What Went Wrong (long)

[FNQ]

I'm starting to believe.... that trueth wasn't even around when Biedrins was first drafted

Wright's been frozen out by D-leaguers as an NBA-ready player... yet apparently this 20 y/o PF with basketball skills was developed better by Nellie than Beans by Monty... unreal!

You can literally see the people trying to infer things by looking only at boxscores... trueth, its obviously not about basketball If you are really going to leave pieces out in every single post, it wont be worth responding to...

[bill curley II]

I really hated the shuffling of the starting lineups, which led to slow starts and playing catch up the whole game. It seemed like anytime we went away from the Biedrins, Al, Jax, Monta, Baron starting lineup, we got down big early, and forced Nelly to play Baron, Jax, and Monta for 40+.

That last Clippers game was really how the entire season should've been, start the best 5, get an early lead, play the scrubs in the 2nd and late 3rd to rest the starters, even if you lose the lead, but have fresher legs down the stretch. But Nellie was just so afraid to do that and get down to a deficit in the middle parts of the game and had too short of leash on guys like Pietrus, Barnes, Buike, Wright, Biedrins, and Watson. I think that 0-6 start really stood out in Nellie's mind as being unable to win without all 3 of our main horses on the floor for most of the game.

[turk3d]

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i think we just got hot and healthy at the same time. I think the team just couldn't keep it up the entire season, but we were forced to considering how good everyone else was doing this year.

Any other year, we'd be resting starters and focusing on who we'd play in the first round. This year is an anomoly.

I think Monta's defense and size hurt our team defense. I also think he was playing Baron defense, by restin on D to have energy for Offense. I think we paced our defensive energy in order to sustain our offense.

I think that one of the biggest reasons for this is that we have a coach who doesn't seem to care a "lick" about how guys perform defensively on a consistent basis (if he did he would have benched guys when they weren't even putting out an effort and would have at least made them get rid of all those bad defensive habits they exhibited all season long) and who has a philosophy "just keep chucking" and rewards people who play that way. Bigs (partly because they are usually slower) will give you defense which will improve you're defensive game, but due to their lack of speed will limit your offense. The tradeoff is what does it do to your +/- point differential? I think it will increase it on the positive end.

So what if you lead the league in scoring (looks good, sounds nice) but you also wind up with the worst defense by a wide margin? This is not rocket science and if you ignroe that, you're just pissin' in the wind. There's a reason that no great scoring team without a solid defense has ever won a ring (and in most cases don't do much damage if they get into the playoffs). The closest was Phoenix and even they could overcome it, and they did emphasize defense. You can try to beat teams by outscoring them, but when it's not working, you have to make the adjustment and start playing the tough D, usually down the stretch.

The Warriors were doing that at times throughout the season but just never got consistent enough at it, and just seemed to lose interest in defending when it came down to the wire. Even Denver, which sucks defensively was able to suck it up against us defensively and that's why they beat us the last time we played. That and the fact that we couldn't stop anyone with our defense many a time.

[thetrueth]

In comparing Biedrens to Wright, that's an unfair comparison. In the case of Biedrens (his first two years) he was extremely raw (much more than Wright is) and definitely not yet NBA ready. From what we've seen of Wright (the little we have seen) he was definitely NBA ready (coming out of NC State) playing under a solid fundamentals coach so there's a big difference there. Even when give time by Monty and flashes of talent, he'd get six fouls in 13 minutes so in fact, Monta couldn't really play him any more than he did due to Biedrens foul problems.

That's a valid point.

I just don't agree with the statement that Monty did more to develop Biedrins than Nellie did for Bwright.

I think Bwright is going to be great, and not any less great cuz he didn't get more time.

You said anything less than a playoff spot wouldn't do for you. I don't think Wright would've gotten us to be a 50 win team this year, just like i dont thin he would've cost us any significant number of games. I wish I could've seen more of him, but i really don't think he was wronged this season.

Who's to say he wouldn't have done worse if we threw him in too soon. I think there's more to development than immediate playing time. I like how he got a chance to be around professionals going after the playoffs, got to observe, got training on being in the NBA first, then focus on producing. The kid is an amazing talent, but he's still a kid. That's why there are orientations for these kids about the media, lifestyle, everything else. Its not all about floor time in front of playoff starved fans.

Plus its great that the kid had to sit on the bench and not just given PT. The kid had to earn it with good play, and no errors. He wasn't entitled to anything just cuz of his draft slot. Look at how it ruined Dunleavy. Too much pressure, too high a pick, too big a contract, and the floor game suffers.

Giving this kid time to adjust to NBA life, and making him EARN more time might have been the best thing for him.

Look at how its worked out for Monta and Biedrins. They barely got time, but worked their way to earn more in practice. Earn your PT through hardwork and humility not just talent.

everyone starts talking about how POB was wronged and all that. well in life and in profession, there are always unreasonable obstacles. What do winners do? They overcome it. Beans did it, Monta did (Won the MIP doing it too, Beans with the honorable mention) and BWright's doing. If POB isn't mentally tough to produce when things aren't fair, then so be it. You don't always get the call, the fans aren't always home fans, things aren't always fair. Everyone's got talent, but its the true stars that overcome all that. Otherwise your the next stephon marbury.

[thetrueth]

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Monty did develop Biedrins... The Biedrins light switch flipped his sophmore year, not his 3rd year... his 3rd year was the no-brainer of giving the 20 y/o C who started playing incredible towards the end of his 2nd season....

Again... minutes... turk literally just went over that

It's a ratio... that your obviously ignoring. We had 6 players most of the season... 6... Wright should have logged at least 15 for a large chunk of the season based on the talent level. A green Beans wasn't helpful to the team then - he fouled way too much, wasn't getting position, etc. These basics somehow evolved under Monty, and get credited to Nelson, who's never developed a big in his life

Meanwhile Wright was ready to help out now, and his stage of development is obviously different than Biedrins'. All Wright needs to do is get comfortable with the NBA game... Biedrins needed a ton of work initially.

Then "you" were talking about something out of context... it was asked earlier if I'd prefer Monty as coach... and that's the reason I gave then, and now. How is that jumbled?

@ the extrapolate... I wasn't putting that on anyone... that's called sarcasm - the exact opposite of what anyone should want. Huge difference, and I'm shocked you havent caught that before in my posts, since you like to go through them (albeit, conveniently leaving out things all over the place )

amazingly hypocritical. I spent a crap load of time going through your post, piece by piecee and you comment on like the last 3 lines of my post. (Edit: btw, i'm not responding to your post the way i normally would because you haven't bothered to address questions and points i spent time on.)

I realize you have an agenda and a hate for Nellie. Thats fine, thats your opinion. And to your credit, you hated him through the wins too. Not like some posters who sip the hater-aid during losses but the koolaid during wins.

I can respect your consistent opinion despite disagreeing with it. But dude, you are seriously just not very astute. bless your heart, i'm glad you're a coach and contributing in that way...

[thetrueth]

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I think that one of the biggest reasons for this is that we have a coach who doesn't seem to care a "lick" about how guys perform defensively on a consistent basis (if he did he would have benched guys when they weren't even putting out an effort and would have at least made them get rid of all those bad defensive habits they exhibited all season long) and who has a philosophy "just keep chucking" and rewards people who play that way. Bigs (partly because they are usually slower) will give you defense which will improve you're defensive game, but due to their lack of speed will limit your offense. The tradeoff is what does it do to your +/- point differential? I think it will increase it on the positive end.

So what if you lead the league in scoring (looks good, sounds nice) but you also wind up with the worst defense by a wide margin? This is not rocket science and if you ignroe that, you're just pissin' in the wind. There's a reason that no great scoring team without a solid defense has ever won a ring (and in most cases don't do much damage if they get into the playoffs). The closest was Phoenix and even they could overcome it, and they did emphasize defense. You can try to beat teams by outscoring them, but when it's not working, you have to make the adjustment and start playing the tough D, usually down the stretch.

The Warriors were doing that at times throughout the season but just never got consistent enough at it, and just seemed to lose interest in defending when it came down to the wire. Even Denver, which sucks defensively was able to suck it up against us defensively and that's why they beat us the last time we played. That and the fact that we couldn't stop anyone with our defense many a time.

yea, Nellie said he wouldn't take Baron or Monta off because he couldn't give up their scoring.

They took their breaks while the other team had the ball. Simple as that.

Our defense requires a LOT of energy. If we go small, we need to incorporate more players so our best offensive 3 (baron/monta/jax) can also be our best defensive 3 (Beans is also good).

[Mylie10]

Last years Suns should have been crowned the NBA champions when all was said and done. They were a heartbeat away from beating the Spurs and one has to think they would have handled the Cavs.

The style isn't the problem, but merely last years Suns team had superior players to the ones we have in our running system.

They had Better bigs and better shooters than we do. If Al Harrington was as good as Marion, and Andris as good as Amare, then we'd be better.

We don't shoot the ball as well either.

Traditional versus non traditional is moot if you don't have the best mix for your style.

We were very entertaining this year. But we could have used more length to maximize our strength with our running style. You have to be deeper to have your running be an advantage for the entire year.

We hit the wall and that's not debateable.

Very fun year, but also very frustrating.

Not a failure, but definitely not considered to be satisfying.

I look forward to next year and I hope our FO proves that it's willing to go all out to get us the best players.

I'm hopeful that they'll spend enough to keep the core, but not as hopeful that we'll go beyond that.

That's what's hard to take as a fan. you want your ownership to do whatever it takes. We don't have that here.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

If you told us at the before the start of the season that the Warriors would win 49 games we would have been happy. Who here predicted before the start of the season that 49 wins would not be a playoff team?

If you told me after the first 6 games that this team would win 49 games, then I would have thought you were overly optimistic.

Small Ball is more fun to watch than normal ball. Normal ball wins more often than gimmick ball if you have a normal team. This was not a normal team, particularly if POB really is garbage. If Beidrins, Harrington (not really big) and Croshere are your only big guys, then you had better play small ball.

Nellie is what he is; I just can't decide if he is a genius or idiot, funny & charming or an ****.

Mullin seems to be mediocre as a GM. The players are pretty good, but not good enough. I think Cohan is the team's biggest problem.

[turk3d]

I just don't agree with the statement that Monty did more to develop Biedrins than Nellie did for Bwright.

I although I think that Monty did significantly more for Biedrens (from the standpoint that he played him as long as he was able to stay out of foul trouble right from the beginning when it was shown that he might be able to contribute), I can understand why you might feel it's debatable. Nellie really didn't give Wright any significant minutes until Biedrens went out and Webber clearly couldn't cut it any more, Croshere was still having back problems and Harrington was playing very poorly. So in some ways it seemed as though he was almost forced to play him. Once that took place and Wright was able to get some considerable playing time, the cat was let out of the bag, it was clear that he could play at this level and probably considerably better than the others who had been playing over him. Then as soon as Biedrens came back, once it became clear that Biedrens was able to reclaim his minutes and even more clear that we had to have Biedrens playing significant minutes in order from us to keep our playoff hopes alive, he basically shut Wright down, instead preferring to start buys like Bukie and Petey (when healthy) at the 4 (where he could have and should have been playing Wright) and giving CJ Watson 30 minutes of playing time.

I think Bwright is going to be great, and not any less great cuz he didn't get more time.

I'm not sure how much BWright would have improved (he was good enough to make a positive impact where he is at right now), but I do think he could have made us a signficantly better team. How much better I guess is the question?

You said anything less than a playoff spot wouldn't do for you. I don't think Wright would've gotten us to be a 50 win team this year, just like i dont thin he would've cost us any significant number of games. I wish I could've seen more of him, but i really don't think he was wronged this season.

This is where we differ. It's like this. Say you have two choices, A or B. You (who have the decision making authority) choose A. Well if A pans out, then it is obvious that you made the right decision. However if it doesn't (and what is the measuring criteria?) then we know for a fact what the result was. But if we chose B, then at least the possibility is that it would have. With A we know that it didn't, and at least B has a chance. Now you can say that B may not have, which is true, but we KNOW that A didn't and therefore you are open to major second guessing. Keep in mind that we are talking possibly one game making all the difference, therefore if Nellie had chosen to use more of Wright and less of Bukie and Pietrus at the Power Positions and more of Biedrens and Wright plus less of CJ (which would have allowed Bukie to get more run at the 2 position where he is way better suited) one or two games seem to be quite feasible. I feel that there were at least a couple of games which were sacrificed by playing small ball when it clearly was not working.

Who's to say he wouldn't have done worse if we threw him in too soon. I think there's more to development than immediate playing time. I like how he got a chance to be around professionals going after the playoffs, got to observe, got training on being in the NBA first, then focus on producing. The kid is an amazing talent, but he's still a kid. That's why there are orientations for these kids about the media, lifestyle, everything else. Its not all about floor time in front of playoff starved fans.

For everything that Wrights shown he was ready to get a steady diet of limited minutes off the bench at the very least. If guys like Durant and Thornton can be starters for their respective teams then Wright could surely have been a rotation player. Waiting over half a season before even giving him a sniff to me seems foolish for a team that needed both size and rotation players and even after he showed he was capable, he was still relegated to either garbage time or the bench.

Plus its great that the kid had to sit on the bench and not just given PT. The kid had to earn it with good play, and no errors. He wasn't entitled to anything just cuz of his draft slot. Look at how it ruined Dunleavy. Too much pressure, too high a pick, too big a contract, and the floor game suffers.

Wright >> Dunleavy talentwise and maturity wise (even though younger)

Giving this kid time to adjust to NBA life, and making him EARN more time might have been the best thing for him.

Some guys need it, others don't. It depends on the skill and maturity level. From what I can tell, he was capable. This "earn" more time is overrated imo. Look at Yi, came in as a starter and had all the chances one could ask for before flunking out. Nellie didn't have to start him right away, but should have played him and then start him, if he earned it. Wright's position has been our weakest all season long and working his way into a starter wasn't out of the question, if given the chance to compete.

Look at how its worked out for Monta and Biedrins. They barely got time, but worked their way to earn more in practice. Earn your PT through hardwork and humility not just talent.

Biedrens worked his a$$ off (don't think anyone plays harder or works harder than he does) and yet he had a difficult time getting Nellie to give him 30 minutes a game and was even a starter all the time. Monta turned out to be the best player on the team for us this year, you think maybe he earned his minutes, yet in the Clipper game Nellie took him out for about a quarter. Not very consistent in terms of pt on this team.

everyone starts talking about how POB was wronged and all that. well in life and in profession, there are always unreasonable obstacles. What do winners do? They overcome it. Beans did it, Monta did (Won the MIP doing it too, Beans with the honorable mention) and BWright's doing. If POB isn't mentally tough to produce when things aren't fair, then so be it. You don't always get the call, the fans aren't always home fans, things aren't always fair. Everyone's got talent, but its the true stars that overcome all that. Otherwise your the next stephon marbury.

Listen, in real life, people have to have an environment which is health for them to work in. Same thing in business. Sometime you get a "good" boss to work for and sometimes a "bad" one. Good one in the sense that he's looking to develop you and wants you to succeed and is willing to take the time to groom you to be a "star" in your particular company. You have to have "good" chemistry with him or forget. Different personalities mesh with one another. Sometimes even in a job environment because these things don't mesh with you, you have to go to a different company before that gets realized. Doesn't mean you're not a good worker or are not talented, may just mean that you don't "click" with your boss and doesn't mean that you won't click with another boss. This is what I think about POB and Nellie, they just didn't click. Does that mean that POB sucks as many have claimed or could it be that for whatever reason, he just didn't fit in with Nellie's program. If that is the case, then you can't blame POB. It will be determined when he goes somewhere else (and you can be sure someone will pick him up and give him a chance to prove himself). I blame Mullin for drafting him and then giving up on him so easily by not extending him like he should have (without even having him really tested). POB was in fact mistreated and so were the fans because we never really got to see what he could do and even more so because he perhaps could have helped us. But we can all argue on this until we're blue in the face and won't really know until he moves on. What we do know is that we won't get in the playoffs this year because we refused to utilized some our assets (our bigs) to their fullest extent. If we miss out by just one game, there are sure a number of games that we know we could have easily won.

[FNQ]

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amazingly hypocritical. I spent a crap load of time going through your post, piece by piecee and you comment on like the last 3 lines of my post. (Edit: btw, i'm not responding to your post the way i normally would because you haven't bothered to address questions and points i spent time on.)

I realize you have an agenda and a hate for Nellie. Thats fine, thats your opinion. And to your credit, you hated him through the wins too. Not like some posters who sip the hater-aid during losses but the koolaid during wins.

I can respect your consistent opinion despite disagreeing with it. But dude, you are seriously just not very astute. bless your heart, i'm glad you're a coach and contributing in that way...

I thought I addressed every individual part? What did I miss? I just got lazy and break the quotes off... each paragraph addressed a section of your response. Keep throwing astute around...but I thought that was pretty clear?

Agenda? I guess... I don't like to see our team spin its wheels when we finally have talent for the first time since I was in elementary school. To me it seems that people here are just so conditioned to being the joke, that just not being a joke is good enough, or maintaining that "not a joke" status. It shouldn't be - we're one of the best markets for basketball and its time we started holding our front office, and its decision makers, accountable.

What's baffling me is that my counterpoints are dismissed because I go into detail... it seems details dont matter much here. For example (and I'm using your quotes so you can see exactly what I mean):

"Who's to say he wouldn't have done worse if we threw him in too soon. I think there's more to development than immediate playing time. I like how he got a chance to be around professionals going after the playoffs, got to observe, got training on being in the NBA first, then focus on producing."

Let's go back to the Beans v. Wright situation. Would Biedrins have been able to contribute on a playoff-contending team in his rookie season? Soph? Probably not (at least, not til the end of Soph.). Then we have Wright, who starts off at 20, not 18... he used his incredible length and basketball smarts to be successful at every level he's played at. Even as an afterthought @ UNC, he was still extremely successful. Despite his body being... unorthodox? ... he's still able to contribute.

The difference was that Beans needed skills refinement and to settle down/get comfy, and Wright just needed to settle down and get comfortable. Throwing Wright into high pressure situations is NOT the way to do that. I think Monty did an admirable job handling Beans. He benched him the entirety of his rookie season, making him learn and get familiar with the team, the NBA, the language. Then gave him a whole lot of floor time in March to ease him into the game, and get comfortable. And he got quite a few touches too, even if he wasn't shooting. By his sophmore year, the results were evident. By the end of sophmore year... shocking He had 2 years to refine his skills and footwork, which he did, and by his sophmore year he was comfortable on the court. Then as his junior year rolled in, Nellie took over, and all the pieces were already ready for him.

Now we look at Wright, and he was thrust into games in the 2nd Q, against big name teams. He was skittish on the court for about 4 months. Why? When did he even get the ball in garbage time? He was frozen out by Buke, CJ, Pietrus, hell even Croshere. So when he finally gets the ball, did he know what to do with it in our "offense"? Not hardly. He was obviously rattled when he had to jump into big games - and the results show it. His worst stretch of 3 games (LAL / @LAL / POR), he was nervous... but even when he was nervous, he produced. The fundamentals are there. The comfort isn't/wasn't. How could it be? Even if he plays well in the 2/3Q he gets yanked and doesn't come back.

So now its the end of the season, perfect time to get him some NBA legitimate floor time. Instead we're fighting a vertical battle to somehow sneak into the playoffs. And when Wright still plays, especially big games (SAS, DAL, NO to name a few in this month), Wright still comes out skittish. And there's justification to that because of what Nellie's done in the past.

Dunno if you and turk went over any of this... but I think like this. I don't believe in coincidences... thats a word for people who give up and can't understand why things are the way they are.

Nellie/Cohan/Mullin/Rowell took a risk this season. It didn't pay off. If it did, people would be rejoicing. So here's the other end of the spectrum - they blew it, they failed. There's should not be a middle line here.

[FNQ]

BTW trueth - your whole argument in that post was based on minutes and what I said about Biedrins/Monty. And my initial post covered that.

Monty did more for Biedrins' development than Nellie. I can say it 500 different ways too. Monty developed Biedrins. Nellie didn't do better with Biedrins than Monty. Monty gave Biedrins a much better atmosphere to develop. Take your pick... Nellie came upon a 95% finished product... Biedrins could set screens and roll by the end of his sophmore year. What happened was Nellie opening the middle up (keeping Murphleavy perimeter) and letting Baron work the pick n roll with Beans.

Every other question was answered... what are you on about?

[thetrueth]

Turk/510,

"edit: [I]" read this entire page. Agreed with some points, disagreed with others, had counter-points or flaws i saw in the arguement......

but really...

would anyone bother or care to adequate address this entire page of content?

I appreciate and respect the thorough posts, which is why i read it all.

And I wish I could bring myself to reply, there were points i wanted to make as i read through this page...

but really! Look at the amount of content on this page! I've already got a full time job

[big_baller_shot_caller23]

sounds like this guys been writing this article for the whole season lol