The Iverson Challenge

[penbeast0]

Allen Iverson, in Denver, has an excellent team around him that has all the elements for a great small guard. They have a deep defensively oriented interior with great shotblocking (Camby, Nene, KMart), they have another supertalented primary scorer (Carmelo), and they have solid but not spectacular players at the guard spots to play next to him (Blake/AJohnson, J.Smith). Iverson has had success there. He has had the highest PERs of his career and taken the team to an above .500 record and a playoff spot each year (assuming they hold on this year).

Which great small guards could take the Nuggets to a top 4 seed in the powerhouse NBA West,? Which would not be able to keep the Nuggets over .500? THat's the Iverson Challenge.

THe Challengers
Pass first Points:

Bob Cousy (one of the great playmakers in a day when assists were harder to get and with multiple NBA titles on his resume)

John Stockton (the master of the pick and roll and a ballhawk defender)

Norm Van Lier (Fiery competitor and aggressive defensive star)


Passing and Scoring Points:

Nate Archibald (30+ ppg and 10+ assists in his peak years)

Isiah Thomas (scorer, distributor, leader of the Bad Boy Pistons)

Steve Nash (high efficiency scorer and assist machine)


Great small 2 guards:

Bill Sharman (Mr. Catch and shoot, good defense and efficiency in his day)

Hal Greer (the 3rd best guard in the 60s behind Oscar and Jerry West)

Alvin Robertson (superaggressive defender and DPOY)

[Schad]

Tim Hardaway, circa '91/'92.

Hardaway would have no problem operating in the high-paced Denver offense, nor doing do for the 40mpg that Iverson plays. I suspect that this choice might be criticized; Iverson this year has been more efficient than Hardaway in the Run T-M-C period, but Hardaway's superior creation skills would generate easy baskets for their trio of frontcourt players.

Verdict: Prime Hardaway would improve the Nuggets, but not quite enough to grab homecourt in the West.

[penbeast0]

Yes, had 5 more players on my original list: Tim Hardaway, Kevin Johnson, Mark Price, Gus Williams, Gail Goodridge but I left them off the final list because they at least Hardaway/KJ/Price were very similar players from the same era who would have roughly the same response and I wanted less choices with wider variety.

[big123]

None of the 2 guards playing with Carter, that's for sure. Put any of the great PG's and start JR, maybe, but that would be changing the dynamics of the team altogether.

[rsavaj]

Kevin Johnson would be perfect.

[ponder276]

Allen Iverson, in Denver, has an excellent team around him that has all the elements for a great small guard. They have a deep defensively oriented interior with great shotblocking (Camby, Nene, KMart), they have another supertalented primary scorer (Carmelo), and they have solid but not spectacular players at the guard spots to play next to him (Blake/AJohnson, J.Smith). Iverson has had success there. He has had the highest PERs of his career and taken the team to an above .500 record and a playoff spot each year (assuming they hold on this year).

Which great small guards could take the Nuggets to a top 4 seed in the powerhouse NBA West,? Which would not be able to keep the Nuggets over .500? THat's the Iverson Challenge.

THe Challengers
Pass first Points:

Bob Cousy (one of the great playmakers in a day when assists were harder to get and with multiple NBA titles on his resume)

John Stockton (the master of the pick and roll and a ballhawk defender)

Norm Van Lier (Fiery competitor and aggressive defensive star)


Passing and Scoring Points:

Nate Archibald (30+ ppg and 10+ assists in his peak years)

Isiah Thomas (scorer, distributor, leader of the Bad Boy Pistons)

Steve Nash (high efficiency scorer and assist machine)


Great small 2 guards:

Bill Sharman (Mr. Catch and shoot, good defense and efficiency in his day)

Hal Greer (the 3rd best guard in the 60s behind Oscar and Jerry West)

Alvin Robertson (superaggressive defender and DPOY)

Blake is on Portland this year, not Denver.

Anyways, replace Iverson with Chris Paul (another small guard) and you'd have a ridiculous starting 5:

Chris Paul
JR Smith
Melo
Kmart
Camby

Add in some solid bench players like Kleiza, Najera and Nene (when healthy), and that team is maybe the best in the west. This doesn't necessarily mean that Paul > Iverson, but on a team with two talented but somewhat selfish scorers in Melo and JR, you don't need another somewhat selfish scorer like Iverson, you need a pass first, unselfish PG like Paul. Also, having Paul means Anthony Carter only plays WAY less, and JR Smith plays more, which is a huge upgrade.

[penbeast0]

changing the dynamics is ok; Iverson is playing nearly as much with JR as he is with Carter . . . and you don't think the extra defense and outside shooting of Greer or Sharman or the aggression of Alvin Robertson (who was to defense as Iverson is to offense) would improve the team . . . or conversely, that Iverson is sufficiently better than Sharman (for example) that the team would decline to a below .500 team in the West with a backcourt of Carter and Sharman?

[big123]

changing the dynamics is ok; Iverson is playing nearly as much with JR as he is with Carter . . . and you don't think the extra defense and outside shooting of Greer or Sharman or the aggression of Alvin Robertson (who was to defense as Iverson is to offense) would improve the team . . . or conversely, that Iverson is sufficiently better than Sharman (for example) that the team would decline to a below .500 team in the West with a backcourt of Carter and Sharman?

Yeah now, if they played as much as the last 10 games all year and the team played consistent defense (everyone), than this team would be top 4 seed and this challenge would be moot. Dumbest thing the Nuggets could have done was to think Carter/Atkins was the right fit with AI in the backcourt. Neither are any good and it just makes it a midgit backcourt.

For most of the year, AI has been playing both positions (SG and PG) with Carter andf JR out. When JR comes in, AI plays more of the point and JR becomes SG. Plus, JR's size to defend 2's and a legit scoring threat to spread the floor is a much better fit.

JR has played 1400 minutes this season to Carter's close to 2000. If it was even the other way around, this team would have 4-5 more wins IMO.

[penbeast0]

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Blake is on Portland this year, not Denver.

Yes, was trying to question whether during the period since the trade another small guard, either a PG or a SG, would have been able to take the team as far or possibly farther than Iverson has. Thus Blake/Carter was the PG but JR has been there most of that period. I'd explain more but I already talk waaaay too much.

[ILikeTheGrizz]

Well, since Iverson's strongest point is his scoring and he has Carmelo there...

I'd say Stockton could do well, probably better. Thomas, possibly. Nash probably. KJ for sure.

The catch is this year is so strange. Most years the Nuggets would be in contention for the fourth seed. Transplant these Nuggest to most other eras and conferences and they would be at least competitive for it. This year, it seems like the question is which one of those guys would mesh well enough to win like 3 more games over the course of the season. It's such a small number that it's well within the margin of error. What I mean by that is I think Iverson himself could be one of the PGs you place in the system to get them to a 4 seed this year. It just didn't happen this iteration, but it's within the margin of error.

[big123]

Maybe AI isn't the perfect fit, especially playing with Carter as the PG, but he sure isn't the reason why the Nuggets haven't won 4-5 more games this year, I can ensure you that. Anyone that's misinformed or not informed at all would think differently though so I can understand. It's so much more to it than just Melo and AI meshing.

[Doctor MJ]

Maybe AI isn't the perfect fit, especially playing with Carter as the PG, but he sure isn't the reason why the Nuggets haven't won 4-5 more games this year, I can ensure you that. Anyone that's misinformed or not informed at all would think differently though so I can understand. It's so much more to it than just Melo and AI meshing.

A better fit with comparable talent would increase the win total. Simple as that. I've said it before: The league breathed a sigh of relief when AI went to Denver because it was not a place that desperately needed his skillset. Doesn't mean his skillset isn't great, but when the other star player already has that covered, you're not going to maximize your results for the amount of talent on the club.

[big123]

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A better fit with comparable talent would increase the win total. Simple as that. I've said it before: The league breathed a sigh of relief when AI went to Denver because it was not a place that desperately needed his skillset. Doesn't mean his skillset isn't great, but when the other star player already has that covered, you're not going to maximize your results for the amount of talent on the club.

Your absolutely right. You could even put JR in there now IMO. Melo, JR and AI are all basically similiar players on one squad instead of 5 different players maximizes their talent level. They all hold each other back in some way or another. It effects the rotation as well. Even so, they are still a solid team despite other areas that need improvement (PG and bench).

[MaNs1]

Nash whould me the perfect fit..

He is everything the Nuggets lack...

He would give them at last a constant three-potint threat and he would create many opportunities for their athletic bigs -that can't create their own offense but they are decent finishers- .Additionaly,Nash would maximize the possibilites of Melo's insane finishing ability(a really underrated aspect of his game) that is not fully utilized in Denver's current system.
In conclusion,Nash would establish a consistency in their unstable offensive firepower...
Not to mention that they could start JR smith with Nash.

[big123]

Nash whould me the perfect fit..

He is everything the Nuggets lack...

He would give them at last a constant three-potint threat and he would create many opportunities for their athletic bigs -that can't create their own offense but they are decent finishers- .Additionaly,Nash would maximize the possibilites of Melo's insane finishing ability(a really underrated aspect of his game) that is not fully utilized in Denver's current system.
In conclusion,Nash would establish a consistency in their unstable offensive firepower...
Not to mention that they could start JR smith with Nash.

One of the major things that the Nuggets lack is perimeter defense, something I highly doubt that Nash would fix. The Nuggets score just fine, even with Carter in the linup doing basically nothing most games. They would probably score a little more conistently, especially with Nash in and Carter out, but score in a different way with basically the same result if Nash was there IMO. Scoring is definitely not the problem with JR in the game and he could start now, he just doesn't because he is needed as a spark off the bench because he's basically it. The more time JR gets on the floor, the offense is near unstopppable as is.

[MaNs1]

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One of the major things that the Nuggets lack is perimeter defense, something I highly doubt that Nash would fix. The Nuggets score just fine, even with Carter in the linup doing basically nothing most games. They would probably score a little more conistently, especially with Nash in and Carter out, but score in a different way with basically the same result if Nash was there IMO. Scoring is definitely not the problem with JR in the game and he could start now, he just doesn't because he is needed as a spark off the bench because he's basically it. The more time JR gets on the floor, the offense is near unstopppable as is.

Denver is 10th in Offensive efficiency league wide and 7th in their conference(!!)..(suns are 1st).
Which is nothing to brag about if you are a team that wants to contend for something ,with that type of -offensive- talent and which plays in an insanely fast-paced system...

There is a misconception concerning Denver's offense(and defense but this is not the point) just because of their fast-paced game skews the basic stats like points total....[/img]

Ps :Billups would be a good call as well...Somewhat less talent but an IDEAL fit..

[big123]

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Denver is 10th in Offensive efficiency league wide and 7th in their conference(!!)..(suns are 1st).
Which is nothing to brag about if you are a team that wants to contend for something ,with that type of -offensive- talent and which plays in an insanely fast-paced system...

There is a misconception concerning Denver's offense(and defense but this is not the point) just because of their fast-paced game skews the basic stats like points total....[/img]

Ps :Billups would be a good call as well...Somewhat less talent but an IDEAL fit..

It's been better with JR getting more and consistent minutes for the last month.

Billups is a good call. I agree

You have to remember that Miller was in Denver just 2 years ago. He's a pretty good PG as well and it didn't take them anywhere in a less competitive conference. Replace Miller with Carter at PG, while replacing JR with AI in the starting lineup and they are still somewhat better. The Nuggets need to move AI to PG, bench Carter and start JR so the trade is more maximized, not addition by subtraction.

[penbeast0]

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A better fit with comparable talent would increase the win total. Simple as that. I've said it before: The league breathed a sigh of relief when AI went to Denver because it was not a place that desperately needed his skillset. Doesn't mean his skillset isn't great, but when the other star player already has that covered, you're not going to maximize your results for the amount of talent on the club.

For years the Iverson apologists have been saying he needed a second primary scorer to go with inside shotblocking and help defense plus a PG who can guard either big or small guards so that Iverson can play the lesser guard threat and be able to create havoc in the passing lanes.

That's what he has in Denver (though neither Blake nor Carter are defensive stoppers, they are both versatile and willing at least). I didn't say Iverson was a good fit for Denver. I said Denver was a good fit for Iverson.

Note: everyone should know that I am not an Iverson fan, but the no hand check rule made him a pretty useful player instead of a potential liability.

[big123]

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For years the Iverson apologists have been saying he needed a second primary scorer to go with inside shotblocking and help defense plus a PG who can guard either big or small guards so that Iverson can play the lesser guard threat and be able to create havoc in the passing lanes.

That's what he has in Denver (though neither Blake nor Carter are defensive stoppers, they are both versatile and willing at least). I didn't say Iverson was a good fit for Denver. I said Denver was a good fit for Iverson.

Note: everyone should know that I am not an Iverson fan, but the no hand check rule made him a pretty useful player instead of a potential liability.

What are you talking about? The whole entire team doesn't play defense except for Kenyon and Camby, when he wants a block. The PG he plays with couldn't be a worse fit regarding him. Versatile my ass.

I've always said that AI needs a big low post dominate threat inside, which is non-existent on this team. Not just for AI, but it seems it's what it takes for any team to win a title these days.

[Doctor MJ]

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For years the Iverson apologists have been saying he needed a second primary scorer to go with inside shotblocking and help defense plus a PG who can guard either big or small guards so that Iverson can play the lesser guard threat and be able to create havoc in the passing lanes.

That's what he has in Denver (though neither Blake nor Carter are defensive stoppers, they are both versatile and willing at least). I didn't say Iverson was a good fit for Denver. I said Denver was a good fit for Iverson.

Note: everyone should know that I am not an Iverson fan, but the no hand check rule made him a pretty useful player instead of a potential liability.

Well, you know I'm not a big Iverson fan either. I confirm that many Iverson fans have said he just needed a second scorer, to which I always responded my vehement disagreement. However, we know for a fact that Iverson was capable of leading a team to better results than this because of '00-01.