MVP Watch 2008... Part 5

[Andrew Bynasty]

My votes for Kobe.

Winning the one of the toughest conferences ever despite playing hurt and dealing with injuries to everyone on the team is very impressive.

[shobe_81]

Ok so far:


Shobe_81: Kobe
Andrew Bynasty: Kobe
ILikeTheGrizz: Kobe (provided current standings)
Semi?
Tkb?
Doc?
NO-KG-AI?
KDRE?
EatOurChildren

Anyone else?

[Andrew Bynasty]

And for that *bleep* that suggested Gasol as MVP...

What about last season when the Hornets sucked because Peja and West were out with injury? Does that mean that they are the real MVP's of that team?

Dont be absurd. With Bynum we were in 1st place... and now with Gasol we are 1st place. Kobe just needs a legit big guy and the Lakers will be dominant.

[shobe_81]

^ Calm down, it was a Clippers fan, poor kid had nothing to cheer for regarding his team so he found something to interest him.

[eatyourchildren]

Grizz, why do Kobe fans need to feel compelled to defend the 2 MVP's Nash won?

For one, I don't really care too much about the first one, since it was significant on levels beyond the traditional criteria. The 2nd one though, I don't agree with because as I recall, the argument was that his stats had improved from the year prior so he should get it. Not unlike the argument proffered by some pro-CP'ers (that because CP's season is an improvement on Nash's, he should get it) which I think is ridiculous.

Finally, Kobe has another thing going for him v. Nash of previous years, CP of this year, KG of this year, and arguably LeBron of this year--he's better than all of them.

[semi-sentient]

shobe_81 ... my vote goes to Kobe for the following reasons:

1) He's had a great all around year from an individual standpoint. He played great on both ends of the floor from start to finish, and some of his recent play has propelled him above CP3 in my book.

2) He's had his best year as a team leader, and one of his best seasons as a team player. Despite all the off-season turmoil, he has pulled the team together and everyone now has the same mindset -- win a championship.

3) He's kept the Lakers together and playing well despite injuries (including injuries to himself that would have sidelined others), roster changes, etc. In short, he is the largest part of the reason why the Lakers overachieved. Hell, I had them winning 53 games this season IF they stayed healthy. Kobe messed around and led them to 56, possibly 57 wins.

4) He now meets the "Best Player on a Top 3 Team" criteria that has been used in past seasons. While that particular criteria goes a little out of the window this year with such a competitive conference (and a lack of competition in the eastern conference), it certainly doesn't hurt that he's led the Lakers to what looks like the #1 seed in the most (or one of the most) competitive conferences in the history of the NBA. In prior years, this is why I never had Kobe as my MVP. The team simply wasn't good enough.

[Blame Rasho]

If I had a vote I would vote for Kobe.... Paul was right there in the every end nonetheless.

[semi-sentient]

Besides that, if other people were calling it a "joke" who's calling it one in this thread? Kobe fans who's biggest argument for him winning the award was keeping the Lakers as a good seed through injuries. Virtually the same argument that won Nash his. You'd think at least they would defend it. But...

Oddly enough, not a single "Kobe fan" has called the award a joke or stated that it lacked credibility in this particular thread, although others have:

If Paul or Garnett don't take the MVP trophy home the award is a joke.

Kobe and LBJ would be a tie for 3rd imo

Not only is it not a lifetime achievement award, its not a case of Kobe being robbed. So its not like the NBA owes him an MVP. There was never a year Kobe was robbed of MVP. It wasn't even a possibility any year of his career. It would become a joke award if Kobe got MVP "for sympathy reasons" which will probably be the accusation if he wins it. Shaq is closer to being robbed of the MVP than Kobe. Shaq should have won it his first year in Miami.

I'm in favor of giving Kobe a lifetime achievement award, but that's not why he deserves the MVP should voters actually give him the nod. There were long stretches where Kobe played nearly flawless basketball while the Lakers endured one injury after another. And Los Angeles didn't fade as expected. Outside of Paul, who had a better year in the leadership department? Bryant is the greatest player of his generation. Giving him the award would restore its credibility.

Now I'm sure there are a few "Kobe fans" that might have implied as much, but I didn't find anything using a keyword search. I looked for the words "joke" and "credible", and those 3 posts (noting that one is actually a writer that was quoted) are the only ones that used those particular words.

[shobe_81]

Update MVP Realgm Picks:

Shobe_81: Kobe
Andrew Bynasty: Kobe
ILikeTheGrizz: Kobe (provided current standings)
Semi: Kobe
Tkb?
Doc?
NO-KG-AI?
KDRE?
EatOurChildren
Blame Rasho: Kobe

Anyone else?

[ILikeTheGrizz]

Grizz, why do Kobe fans need to feel compelled to defend the 2 MVP's Nash won?

They don't need to, but they probably shouldn't attack it since their whole hero's case rests upon the same foundation his did. I'm not sure why they think the award is a "joke" now if they're not talking about that one. Maybe you can help me out?

For one, I don't really care too much about the first one, since it was significant on levels beyond the traditional criteria.

The "turnaround" reason is why Kidd got a .71 MVP share in '01. There was already a basis there. It's also why both Duncan and Robinson were in the top 10 in '98, and why Duncan in particular was ahead of Robinson. Nash was just the first won (in awhile?) to actually get the award for it, but people had been voting based upon things like that for years. It doesn't happen that often, so you won't see it much.

The 2nd one though, I don't agree with because as I recall, the argument was that his stats had improved from the year prior so he should get it. Not unlike the argument proffered by some pro-CP'ers (that because CP's season is an improvement on Nash's, he should get it) which I think is ridiculous.

The much bigger argument was doing it without Amare. That he had better stats as he did it was just icing on the cake.

Finally, Kobe has another thing going for him v. Nash of previous years, CP of this year, KG of this year, and arguably LeBron of this year--he's better than all of them.

If you say so. While I don't think the Lakers would do any better with CP or Garnett, I don't think those teams would be doing any better with Kobe. To say nothing of the Cavs.

[ILikeTheGrizz]

Now I'm sure there are a few "Kobe fans" that might have implied as much, but I didn't find anything using a keyword search. I looked for the words "joke" and "credible", and those 3 posts (noting that one is actually a writer that was quoted) are the only ones that used those particular words.

I didn't mean they literally called it a joke. Hasn't anyone ever told you to **** off without saying those exact words? GTFO, get lost, **** you, get out of my face, I don't give a ****, etc all mean the same thing.

Kobe fans I would say are the most vehement that the award doesn't mean anything- mostly because Kobe hasn't won it. You're a Laker fan, why don't you check the MVP thread on the board over there?

[BRINGTHEPAIN]

Update MVP Realgm Picks:

Shobe_81: Kobe
Andrew Bynasty: Kobe
ILikeTheGrizz: Kobe (provided current standings)
Semi: Kobe
Tkb?
Doc?
NO-KG-AI?
KDRE?
EatOurChildren
Blame Rasho: Kobe
BRINGTHEPAIN: Kevin Garnett

[magicfan4life05]

Update MVP Realgm Picks:

Shobe_81: Kobe
Andrew Bynasty: Kobe
ILikeTheGrizz: Kobe (provided current standings)
Semi: Kobe
Tkb?
Doc?
NO-KG-AI?
KDRE?
EatOurChildren
Blame Rasho: Kobe
BRINGTHEPAIN: Kevin Garnett
magicfan4life05: Kobe Bean

[semi-sentient]

I didn't mean they literally called it a joke. Hasn't anyone ever told you to **** off without saying those exact words? GTFO, get lost, **** you, get out of my face, I don't give a ****, etc all mean the same thing.

Which is why I stated the following:

Now I'm sure there are a few "Kobe fans" that might have implied as much, but I didn't find anything using a keyword search.

Kobe fans I would say are the most vehement that the award doesn't mean anything- mostly because Kobe hasn't won it. You're a Laker fan, why don't you check the MVP thread on the board over there?

The only 2 posters that implied that the award was meaningless are 0HeadAche0 and lakerRD. Considering it's the Lakers board, and the thread is 10 pages long, that's not all that bad. The overwhelming majority did not state that it was meaningless or a joke.

[eatyourchildren]

-= original quote snipped =-



If you say so. While I don't think the Lakers would do any better with CP or Garnett, I don't think those teams would be doing any better with Kobe. To say nothing of the Cavs.

1. The foundation for Nash's 2nd MVP isn't entirely like the foundation for Kobe's 1st. Kobe's a better 2-way player than Nash was--that's in addition to leading a hobbled team to a top record. That's been a foundational factor for the pro-Kobe camp for the past few years running.

2. I'm not talking about turnaround. I'm saying that the 1st MVP was given as a token of appreciation for infusing the NBA with a whole new viable playing style (or at least one reminiscent of showtime) and doing so past the typical prime of a PG.

3. You're not rebutting my point, which is that 07-08 Kobe is arguably a better 2-way player than all of them. Saying that Kobe wouldn't be better when swapping places is talking past that.

[ILikeTheGrizz]

-= original quote snipped =-



The only 2 posters that implied that the award was meaningless are 0HeadAche0 and lakerRD. Considering it's the Lakers board, and the thread is 10 pages long, that's not all that bad. The overwhelming majority did not state that it was meaningless or a joke.

Only two huh? Are we going with having to use the exact word or...? You know saying it's a travesty/embarrassment (or another such word) that Kobe hasn't won it kinda implies the award doesn't matter unless he wins it, too.

1. The foundation for Nash's 2nd MVP isn't entirely like the foundation for Kobe's 1st. Kobe's a better 2-way player than Nash was--that's in addition to leading a hobbled team to a top record. That's been a foundational factor for the pro-Kobe camp for the past few years running.

It's very close. 2-way player? I'll get to that.

2. I'm not talking about turnaround. I'm saying that the 1st MVP was given as a token of appreciation for infusing the NBA with a whole new viable playing style (or at least one reminiscent of showtime) and doing so past the typical prime of a PG.

Uhhh...no. A 29 team win went to a 62 win team. It was a "token of appreciation" for that, foremost. And second most. And third most.

3. You're not rebutting my point, which is that 07-08 Kobe is arguably a better 2-way player than all of them. Saying that Kobe wouldn't be better when swapping places is talking past that.

You didn't say 2-way player, you just said he was better. Kobe is a better 2-way player than CP but CP is a better offensive director and playmaker. Neither of those speak to who the plain old better player this season is.

[eatyourchildren]

-= original quote snipped =-



You didn't say 2-way player, you just said he was better. Kobe is a better 2-way player than CP but CP is a better offensive director and playmaker. Neither of those speak to who the plain old better player this season is.

2-way, overall, whatever adjective you want to describe it, Kobe is a better player than CP, and you'd be hard pressed to find any pundits saying otherwise. He's arguably the best on the combination of offense and defense. What other 'ways' are there in basketball?

______________________
Saying that CP is a better offensive director and playmaker than Kobe is saying that CP is a better PG than Kobe. No kidding?

Think outside the box (score) for a second.

What's the relative impact of CP or Kobe 'holding back' from producing statistically up to their max for a season.

With CP, if he tames his game, he essentially stops passing as much, stops penetrating the lane for kicks out as much. He basically stops being a PG. So to run his offense, he essentially is supposed to max out those qualities that are being specifically tracked by the boxscore--decreasing turnovers, increasing assists, etc.

With KB, if he tames his game, he essentially slows down his scoring, passes more, rebounds more, plays more D, etc. He basically increases his efficacy as a off-the-ball SG. So to run his offense, he essentially is supposed to max out those qualities that are not being tracked by the boxscore. Which is why this season his stats comport with him playing the best ball of his life.

You can reread some of BGil's posts about the relative impact of ball dominance as it relates to assists for some other nuanced discussion about this very concept.

[ILikeTheGrizz]

Kobe might be a better player, but that doesn't mean he's having a better season. It doesn't mean he's a better player this year.

I'm not sure what the point of 'taming' one's game is, or what it's even supposed to mean. A tame Kobe will rebound more than a wild Kobe but a tame CP will rebound less than a wild CP? What?

And Bgil's posts only make sense to a select few people, and virtually all of them wear #24 jerseys the majority of the week. Refering to him for enlightened objective posts regarding someone that is competing with Kobe is like me telling you to go read the Motley Crue book for some tips on moderation.

[Derekman]

derekman votes for Kobe.

[eatyourchildren]

Kobe might be a better player, but that doesn't mean he's having a better season. It doesn't mean he's a better player this year.

I'm not sure what the point of 'taming' one's game is, or what it's even supposed to mean. A tame Kobe will rebound more than a wild Kobe but a tame CP will rebound less than a wild CP? What?

And Bgil's posts only make sense to a select few people, and virtually all of them wear #24 jerseys the majority of the week. Refering to him for enlightened objective posts regarding someone that is competing with Kobe is like me telling you to go read the Motley Crue book for some tips on moderation.

Kobe HAS had a better season than CP this year. Your argument to the contrary has been based on the fact that CP is outproducing Kobe statistically. But this is unavailing because they've actually been a wash statistically when you take into account +/- and TS%. To which you've then turned to the fact that Kobe' had a relatively unremarkable season.

That's why I brought up why that's a bad argument because CP's great season measured by PG metrics don't crossover to Kobe's season as a SG, specifically because how Kobe's improved from years prior run counter to how he's piled up crazy statistics in the past. If you'll stop being stubborn and muddling the argument by attacking my semantics, you'd realize that an effective Kobe produces less statistically than Kobe at his statistical best. The way CP's improved can be more easily measured by common box score metrics than can Kobe's improvements. CP's main improvement has been in his assists and turnovers, whereas Kobe's main improvement has been in NOT dominating the shotclock. Refrain has been been Kobe's key to success this season. Not a hard concept to understand. Also not hard to understand how this plays out statistically.