MVP Watch 2008... Part 5

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Post#901 » by Bgil » Tue Apr 15, 2008 5:47 pm

And, yes, I just looked at wikipedia and found out about logical fallacies.

You know the green font is supposed to be saved for sarcasm, right?

Of course most people know that there were a handful of swings you could've plugged into that team and still won rings.


You're stating a hypothetical as if it was factual knowledge.

But he's never seperated himself as other historical "best of the era"s have.


Clearly he has for their to be such a consensus of his status as "best of the era". Players including Dirk, T-Mac and Lebron say so, coaching polls say so... He's the only perimeter player to be on both the ALL NBA first team and ALL D first team in years not to mention leading the league in scoring at the same time....

You're just turning a blind eye to that separation (hence that weak offense vs defense argument) because he hasn't taken aim at the box score as his ultimate goal. Your box score separation argument does not hold water.
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Post#902 » by SA37 » Tue Apr 15, 2008 5:52 pm

Just from what I've read from different media outlets, I still feel too many people are choosing Bryant because he is "owed one."

I can't help but feel the award is being tainted by this.*

* Asterisk because I do feel like Kobe has a great case for MVP this year, and I don't say it is tainted because I don't want him to win, because I don't like him, or because I think Paul is the MVP. I just feel like this close race is being influenced by the fact Kobe has never won it.
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Post#903 » by eatyourchildren » Tue Apr 15, 2008 6:05 pm

SA37 wrote:Just from what I've read from different media outlets, I still feel too many people are choosing Bryant because he is "owed one."

I can't help but feel the award is being tainted by this.*

* Asterisk because I do feel like Kobe has a great case for MVP this year, and I don't say it is tainted because I don't want him to win, because I don't like him, or because I think Paul is the MVP. I just feel like this close race is being influenced by the fact Kobe has never won it.


Well according to this board, most of the non-Kobe camp has settled on using the season standings to settle it, right? So if the Lakers are indeed on top, the outcome will vibe even if the reasons for it don't.
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Post#904 » by Bgil » Tue Apr 15, 2008 6:07 pm

SA37 wrote:Just from what I've read from different media outlets, I still feel too many people are choosing Bryant because he is "owed one."

I can't help but feel the award is being tainted by this.*

* Asterisk because I do feel like Kobe has a great case for MVP this year, and I don't say it is tainted because I don't want him to win, because I don't like him, or because I think Paul is the MVP. I just feel like this close race is being influenced by the fact Kobe has never won it.


True but the award was tainted when those 22 people left him off the ballot a couple years back. They're all feeling guilty now. They felt their picks would be validated by the playoffs or covered up by history and it's not working out that way.

Many people have viewed the MVP award as a joke for several years now and (IMO) they're on the cusp of having the league switch the award back to coach and GM voting. The MVP award is supposed to be one of the league's awards to showcase it's talent. No way the writers keep the award if they keep shafting this generation's best and most popular player. They've already screwed over Shaq and Jason Kidd several times. Kobe would probably be the straw that breaks Stern's back. Can't keep giving the award to the Dirk's, Nash's and Paul's of the world, ya know.
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Post#905 » by eatyourchildren » Tue Apr 15, 2008 6:11 pm

Bgil wrote:
And, yes, I just looked at wikipedia and found out about logical fallacies.

You know the green font is supposed to be saved for sarcasm, right?


LOL, not to mention that I didn't say that he just learned about logical fallacies, but that he just learned about appeal to authority via wikipedia (which, btw, remains a viable support to an argument, e.g. expert witness testimonies in just about every class-action lawsuit). The guy continues to rely on mischaracterizations and rhetorical sleight of hands to debate. He's bringing pocket knives to a gunfight.
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Post#906 » by eatyourchildren » Tue Apr 15, 2008 6:15 pm

Bgil wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



True but the award was tainted when those 22 people left him off the ballot a couple years back. They're all feeling guilty now. They felt their picks would be validated by the playoffs or covered up by history and it's not working out that way.

Many people have viewed the MVP award as a joke for several years now and (IMO) they're on the cusp of having the league switch the award back to coach and GM voting. The MVP award is supposed to be one of the league's awards to showcase it's talent. No way the writers keep the award if they keep shafting this generation's best and most popular player. They've already screwed over Shaq and Jason Kidd several times. Kobe would probably be the straw that breaks Stern's back. Can't keep giving the award to the Dirk's, Nash's and Paul's of the world, ya know.


Besides, if they did leave it up to coaches and gm's/scouts, would this be that big of a debate? We'd leave it in the hands of those uncredible, unknowledgeable, non-experts, much to the chagrin of likethegrizz.

I do have a gut feeling who they'd chose this year though...anyone care to disagree?
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Post#907 » by KDRE » Tue Apr 15, 2008 6:20 pm

SA37 wrote:Just from what I've read from different media outlets, I still feel too many people are choosing Bryant because he is "owed one."

I can't help but feel the award is being tainted by this.*

* Asterisk because I do feel like Kobe has a great case for MVP this year, and I don't say it is tainted because I don't want him to win, because I don't like him, or because I think Paul is the MVP. I just feel like this close race is being influenced by the fact Kobe has never won it.



Basically, Kobe is a sympathy *MVP*
Notes: Rookie Rudy Gay twisted his left ankle trying to guard McGrady late in the third quarter and limped to the bench. He returned with 5:51 left, then returned to the bench about a minute later - http://www.nba.com/games/20061231/MEMHOU/recap.html
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Post#908 » by Kobay » Tue Apr 15, 2008 6:22 pm

^or maybe people should live up to their promise and give it to whoever comes up at top of the west out of the two. Truth is no one in their mind thought the current situation would occur couple of weeks ago. Because they believed Cp3 the mvp wouldn't choke like this going into the playoffs. And no one thought Kobe would beat any of top teams with heavy arse injury. No ones giving kobe the mvp because he hasn't won it. THey're giving it to him because he made his teammates better this season by cutting out his own shots and gave up his favorite position for his teammates.With all that he took the team to top of the west with injuries and that has separated him from other candidates the fact that despite having injuries Lakers on top.

Read the people who casted the vote, they specifically say they didn't vote for him because he hasn't won it.
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Post#909 » by eatyourchildren » Tue Apr 15, 2008 6:27 pm

KDRE wrote:-= original quote snipped =-




Basically, Kobe is a sympathy *MVP*


The media has sympathy for Kobe? That's news to me
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Post#910 » by Bgil » Tue Apr 15, 2008 6:30 pm

KDRE wrote:-= original quote snipped =-




Basically, Kobe is a sympathy *MVP*


Kinda. The field is somewhat even (edit: in the eyes of sportswriters) and the lifetime achievement vote pushes Kobe over the top. Paul or KG would probably be MVP if Kobe had won the award two years ago.
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Post#911 » by Bgil » Tue Apr 15, 2008 6:34 pm

Kobay wrote:^or maybe people should live up to their promise and give it to whoever comes up at top of the west out of the two. Truth is no one in their mind thought the current situation would occur couple of weeks ago. Because they believed Cp3 the mvp wouldn't choke like this going into the playoffs. And no one thought Kobe would beat any of top teams with heavy arse injury. No ones giving kobe the mvp because he hasn't won it. THey're giving it to him because he made his teammates better this season by cutting out his own shots and gave up his favorite position for his teammates.With all that he took the team to top of the west with injuries and that has separated him from other candidates the fact that despite having injuries Lakers on top.

Read the people who casted the vote, they specifically say they didn't vote for him because he hasn't won it.


That's why they should give it to him but that's not the feeling I get from their writings.
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Post#912 » by tracey_nice » Tue Apr 15, 2008 6:36 pm

Is this for real? Are people actually trying to portray Kobe winning the MVP as a sympathy MVP(assuming he wins) ? Or maybe, he has the best argument to be made of any candidate; Best player in the NBA(live with it ILikewhatever), best team in best conference(all time), all nba defense combined with 2nd in the league in scoring. If anyone tries to make it out as Kobe's MVP is a sympathy one, you can either do some research and notice that their is very little sympathy for Kobe Bryant or you can *******
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Post#913 » by eatyourchildren » Tue Apr 15, 2008 6:50 pm

Bgil wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



Kinda. The field is somewhat even (edit: in the eyes of sportswriters) and the lifetime achievement vote pushes Kobe over the top. Paul or KG would probably be MVP if Kobe had won the award two years ago.


It's certainly one MORE argument, but not THE argument.

If Kobe does end up winning, the CP crowd can take solace in the fact that CP is the better player, led his team to the best record in the West, and done so despite an injury riddled-season.



Oh wait...
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Post#914 » by Bgil » Tue Apr 15, 2008 6:51 pm

eatyourchildren wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



Besides, if they did leave it up to coaches and gm's/scouts, would this be that big of a debate? We'd leave it in the hands of those uncredible, unknowledgeable, non-experts, much to the chagrin of likethegrizz.

I do have a gut feeling who they'd chose this year though...anyone care to disagree?


Nope. They would have engraved Kobe's name on the award already. Everyone knows that, despite the overall records, the NOH are probably the fourth or fifth best team in the conference behind LAL, SA, Utah, and probably PHX. They've played well but their only no.2 right now because they've been healthier than everyone else and didn't go through any mid-season adjustment period because of action at the trade deadline.
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Post#915 » by Bgil » Tue Apr 15, 2008 6:54 pm

eatyourchildren wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



It's certainly one MORE argument, but not THE argument.

If Kobe does end up winning, the CP crowd can take solace in the fact that CP is the better player, led his team to the best record in the West, and done so despite an injury riddled-season.



Oh wait...


I've been going around to all the boards and apparently no one wants to play the Lakers with the exception of one delusional rockets fan and a few Suns fans. We're basically on everyone's "avoid at all costs" list. I also get the feeling that NOH is the most likely to get upset in the first round.
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Post#916 » by KDRE » Tue Apr 15, 2008 7:03 pm

Bgil wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



Nope. They would have engraved Kobe's name on the award already. Everyone knows that, despite the overall records, the NOH are probably the fourth or fifth best team in the conference behind LAL, SA, Utah, and probably PHX. They've played well but their only no.2 right now because they've been healthier than everyone else and didn't go through any mid-season adjustment period because of action at the trade deadline.


it shouldnt be any argument at all, and LeBron was the guy who was the real MVP that year.

Stop it with the health crap because every team suffers injuries.

.. and yep the writers are throwing some sympathy into their votes, sorry to say it, but they are. The selection process has been a bit contaminated to say the least.
Notes: Rookie Rudy Gay twisted his left ankle trying to guard McGrady late in the third quarter and limped to the bench. He returned with 5:51 left, then returned to the bench about a minute later - http://www.nba.com/games/20061231/MEMHOU/recap.html
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Post#917 » by eatyourchildren » Tue Apr 15, 2008 7:05 pm

KDRE wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



it shouldnt be any argument at all, and LeBron was the guy who was the real MVP that year.

Stop it with the health crap because every team suffers injuries.

.. and yep the writers are throwing some sympathy into their votes, sorry to say it, but they are. The selection process has been a bit contaminated to say the least.


Yes, I'm sure a roundtable of coaches, gm's, and scouts would choose LeBron as the MVP. :roll:
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Post#918 » by KDRE » Tue Apr 15, 2008 7:08 pm

eatyourchildren wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



Yes, I'm sure a roundtable of coaches, gm's, and scouts would choose LeBron as the MVP. :roll:



In that year that these writers claim Kobe should've won it, LeBron had a far superior case.

That's the same year he's getting sympathy votes for.

You're so quick to defend Kobe for this year you're mixing years.
Notes: Rookie Rudy Gay twisted his left ankle trying to guard McGrady late in the third quarter and limped to the bench. He returned with 5:51 left, then returned to the bench about a minute later - http://www.nba.com/games/20061231/MEMHOU/recap.html
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Post#919 » by LakerRings » Tue Apr 15, 2008 7:55 pm

KDRE wrote:-= original quote snipped =-




In that year that these writers claim Kobe should've won it, LeBron had a far superior case.

That's the same year he's getting sympathy votes for.

You're so quick to defend Kobe for this year you're mixing years.


that's actualy pretty funny, since Kobe had better numbers and won the scoring title. And, played defense, something Bron had yet to even consider attempting.

It's nauseating to read most of these posts claiming htat Kobe will win out of sympathy.

He has the best record in the West.

he has numbers on a par with anyone else.

He plays more and better defense than Paul

He is playing injured.

he is deferring his game to the betterment of his team

He has faced more injuries to teammates than any other viable MVP candidate

Paul is great, but he doesn't deserve the MVP. And LeBron isn't even close.
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Post#920 » by shobe_81 » Tue Apr 15, 2008 7:58 pm

[quote="shobe_81"]Here is what we have so far:

Updated MVP Realgm Picks:

Shobe_81: Kobe
Andrew Bynasty: Kobe
ILikeTheGrizz: Kobe (provided current standings of April 14)
Semi: Kobe
Tkb: Kobe
Blame Rasho: Kobe
Derekman: Kobe
magicfan4life05: Kobe Bean
JDawg: Kobe
Doc: Kobe
ko8e: Kobe
Original Baller: Kobe
Tracy Nice: Kobe

BRINGTHEPAIN: Kevin Garnett
RobertGlory: Chris Paul

NO-KG-AI? (Undecided, leaning toward Paul and Kobe)
KDRE?

Jokes:
EatOurChildren: Smush Parker
:Kobay: PJ Brown with an *asterisk* hater...

Total so far:
Kobe: 13
KG: 1
CP3: 1
PJ Brown: 1
Smush Parker: 1

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