What would it take to get D Rose?

[Texas Longhorns]

We don't need Derrick Rose. Why would we need him? IMO he will be as good as Deron Williams, but nothing better. We don't need our skeleton system that we have made around Yao-T-Mac to be rebuilt right now. After a couple years, we will start rebuilding after T-Mac's contract is over, but for now we don't need to try to get any big players. Another thing, we don't know how good he will be until he gets into the playoffs.

[jzmagik]

-= original quote snipped =-



You are contradicting yourself. Being able to create for yourself doesn't equal to hitting an open jumpshot. So what is it that we need?

I do agree that Mayo might be a better open shooter, but Rose is equally talented if not better in terms of his ability to create his own shots off the dribble. I like Rose better for this team.[/b]

I didn't say they were equal, I just said we need a guy who can create and hit the open jumpshot. Rose is not nearly as good as Mayo as creating for himself, and you never acknowledged that his jumper is terrible. At the NBA level, he'll be the guy that teams will leave open because he can't shoot for crap. So how exactly would he be a better fit for us than Mayo?

[TMU]

-= original quote snipped =-



I didn't say they were equal, I just said we need a guy who can create and hit the open jumpshot. Rose is not nearly as good as Mayo as creating for himself, and you never acknowledged that his jumper is terrible. At the NBA level, he'll be the guy that teams will leave open because he can't shoot for crap. So how exactly would he be a better fit for us than Mayo?

Rose shot 48% while Mayo shot 44% and Rose's PPS is 1.37 to Mayo's 1.28. Do you still want to argue that Rose is a poor shooter? And while Rose put up better FG percentage, his assists were higher and his turnovers were also much lower than Mayo. Rose is better in almost every aspect except for his ability to score with high volume. But there's no doubt that he'll improve his scoring ability; he's a big point guard and is capable of abusing his counterpart (see DJ Augustine).

One of the biggest role for a rookie is being able to contribute without scoring the ball. Rose has shown that he's certainly capable of that, as indicated by his collegiate games. Mayo has yet to prove that.

I will take a big point guard over a combo guard who's an iffy playmaker. Don't you know that PG is the 2nd most important position next to center? NBA is all about having a strong inside presence and a point guard that you can rely on. Again Rose fits this bill better than Mayo.

Finally, let me ask you this. How did Memphis fare in the tournament last year? And how did they do this year? Guess who was the difference maker? There's a reason why every draft site and analyst is projecting Rose to be drafted higher than Mayo. And let me add this: I would much rather have a proven winner.

EDIT: I think you're seriously underestimating Rose here.

[jzmagik]

[quote="T-Mac United"][/quote]

Rose's fg% is higher than Mayo's because most of his points comes off layups, in which he's able to just use pure athleticism to get his way and finish in the paint. On the NBA level, he won't get away on just pure athleticism anymore. You also left out the 3 point and ft stats, in which Mayo is far ahead of Rose. Rose is shooting 33% from 3s, and 71% from the ft line, while Mayo is 40% and 80% respectively. It also reinforces my point of Rose does not have an NBA ready jumpshot. Rose is still an extremely raw player for a point guard, and if you've seen him play his flaws are pretty evident. He only has one year of college experience under his belt unlike CP3 or Deron, and if you're expecting him to come in and instantly become an elite pg, you're wrong. It will take some time for him to develop, heck ask any fan who've watched his entire college career.

Rose may very well be an elite pg in the future, but he doesn't immediately fill the deficiencies our team has, which is a guy who can create and hit jumpers. How many times a game do you see the defense collapse on Yao or Tmac, only to have them dish it to Alston who bricks a wide open 3? How many times do you see Tmac going going 2/10, and we go on a 6 minute scoring drought? Having an elite pg is overrated for our system, considering Tmac handles most of the point duties. We don't need a pass-first guy, we need a bonafide scorer.


As for your last point, Rose had a much much better roster than Mayo's team. You may be forgetting that before Rose got there, Memphis was already a very good team that was very well capable of going deep in the tournament. Rose was just the piece that put them over the top. I'm not sure if you watched the championship game, but memphis didn't win so he's not a proven winner. Every draft site has Rose going ahead of Mayo because he probably will be the better player in the future, but that still doesn't change the fact that Mayo fits our needs much more than Rose does at this point.

[texasholdem]

-=he's a big point guard and is capable of abusing his counterpart (see DJ Augustine)..

Augustin is 5'11" on a good day.
Rose won't have a great size advantage on too many NBA point guards.

[dontel]

why would you want jalen rose? he's old, and slow if we could get him for vet. min i say go for it!

[YaoZai]

Morey would need to pull every trick possible out of his bag in order to make this happen.

[Sports Arsenal]

How about
Houston Out:
Battier+Jackson+Hayes+Francis
Houston In:
Jaric+Walker+2nd Pick

Minnesota Out:
Walker+Jaric+ 2nd pick
Minnesota In:
Bobby Jackson+Francis+Rasho+08 first Hou
Toronto out:
Rasho
Toronto in:
Battier+Hayes

Edit: Never mind that probably will not do it Walker is an expiring next year too

[PocketRockets]

First and foremost, Rose and Mayo are both unattainable. I would have to choose Rose though because he has a winner mentality. Mayo reminds me of a larry hughes or what larry was when coming into the league. He thinks he's a lot better than he is and that will hurt him in the league. Rose has a swagger that CP3 and Deron has and that's why he'll be that type of player. Like someone said though, we don't need that kind of player. We need someone like Mike Miller, bigger SF/G with a sweet shot.

[TMU]

-= original quote snipped =-



Augustin is 5'11" on a good day.
Rose won't have a great size advantage on too many NBA point guards.

Billups is 6'3'' and weighs 200 pounds, Baron Davis is 6'3'', 210lbs. Hell even Prime Francis was 6'3'' and close to 200 lbs. Have you not seen what they are capable of in this league? That's considerable size advantage over most PGs in the league. Rose's size advantage is probably what separates him from the other draft prospects. I am not saying Rose will abuse the NBA PGs starting Day 1, but give him a couple of years and he'll be one of the premier big PGs in the league.

[TMU]

Rose's fg% is higher than Mayo's because most of his points comes off layups, in which he's able to just use pure athleticism to get his way and finish in the paint.

What's wrong with being able to use athleticism to get a layup? And how is it NOT being able to create his own shot? That suggests that something is wrong with guys like Monta Ellis and Tony Parker. Let's not forget that a layup is a higher percentage shot (w/ the consideration of possible AND1s and the ability to draw contact). Elite superstars like LeBron and D-Wade also makes a living by scoring a bunch in the paint.

On the NBA level, he won't get away on just pure athleticism anymore. You also left out the 3 point and ft stats, in which Mayo is far ahead of Rose. Rose is shooting 33% from 3s, and 71% from the ft line, while Mayo is 40% and 80% respectively. It also reinforces my point of Rose does not have an NBA ready jumpshot.

It does reinforce your point but I have NOT disagreed that Rose doesn't have an NBA ready jumpshot. In fact, it isn't hurting his stock. Rose will be a rookie and he will have plenty of time to improve his outside shooting. Jordan didn't master the jumpshot until he was in his 3rd year, LeBron didn't have a good 3 point shot until his 2nd year. Trainers, coaches, and scouts are already telling these draft prospects that they need to work on their weaknesses.

Rose is still an extremely raw player for a point guard, and if you've seen him play his flaws are pretty evident. He only has one year of college experience under his belt unlike CP3 or Deron, and if you're expecting him to come in and instantly become an elite pg, you're wrong. It will take some time for him to develop, heck ask any fan who've watched his entire college career.

Again I never said Rose will be an immediate factor in this league. So this part of your argument is irrelevant here. Other than his lack of tools to play an outside game, what kind of flaws are you talking about here? Considering that he was a freshman out of college, he has very little flaws as a play maker. Mayo on the other hand is stuck between PG and SG. If he wants to be a PG, he's far from ready to do that in the NBA. I personally believe he'll end up being more of a shooting guard but as indicated by his performance at the collegiate level, I am worried that he's a little too enamored with his outside shot. Like Rose, Mayo isn't entirely NBA ready as he needs to mold himself into a position player that he wishes to be, and stick on to that path.

Rose may very well be an elite pg in the future, but he doesn't immediately fill the deficiencies our team has, which is a guy who can create and hit jumpers. How many times a game do you see the defense collapse on Yao or Tmac, only to have them dish it to Alston who bricks a wide open 3? How many times do you see Tmac going going 2/10, and we go on a 6 minute scoring drought? Having an elite pg is overrated for our system, considering Tmac handles most of the point duties. We don't need a pass-first guy, we need a bonafide scorer.

You keep contradicting yourself. First you said he scored a higher percentage because he uses his athleticism to get a layup. Again, how's that not being able to create? How's passing not creating for your team? Here, you are implying that having a strong outside scoring is the only way to create. Rose can create for his teammates and himself; and we shouldn't compare him to some of the superstars we have in this league (CP3, Deron, Billups, Nash), because as of right now, he can't replicate what the listed players are capable of. But he'll certainly be able to similar glimpses in 2 or 3 years.

Having an elite PG is good for any franchise. That allows McGrady to get his head back on the game and allow him to be a scorer that we need him to be. His first and foremost role is to score the ball and that's why this team got him in first place. Because we don't have a good pass-first PG, McGrady is forced to fill in that role. Like everyone is saying on this board, we need a better PG rather than a 3rd scorer. So in that sense, I think Rose fits better.

In fact, if I want to start a franchise from scratch, there's no question that I will take Rose over Mayo. Shooting guards are more common and prevalent in this league, while past-first PGs are harder to come by.

As for your last point, Rose had a much much better roster than Mayo's team. You may be forgetting that before Rose got there, Memphis was already a very good team that was very well capable of going deep in the tournament. Rose was just the piece that put them over the top. I'm not sure if you watched the championship game, but memphis didn't win so he's not a proven winner.

I am a Memphis fan, and I have watched a good amount of their games as well as the tournament.

I am not going to deny that the Tigers were superior to the Trojans. But before Rose got there, they couldn't even get to the final four. That 07 team had Darius Washington who didn't have the mindset of a pass-first PG. On the other hand, Having Rose this season truly made the difference in that franchise and allowed them to compete in the national championship game (the game they almost won). Considering the Tigers' starting roster didn't change much with the exception of the addition of Rose, speaks volume of his impact on the team.

Every draft site has Rose going ahead of Mayo because he probably will be the better player in the future, but that still doesn't change the fact that Mayo fits our needs much more than Rose does at this point.

That's not the sole reason. One of my friends writes for draftexpress told me Mayo could be a Top 3 pick if the scouts are certain of his position and he does have some weaknesses either as a 1 or 2.

And with above explanations above, I will have to continue to disagree on that Mayo fits better with this team. There's a vast difference between the way we have been playing during the 22 game winning streak and the way they are playing today. Idealistically, I would say Rose fits better; but certainly won't hurt to have a rare talent like Mayo.


Sorry for the numerous edits, I couldn't finish my arguments in one seating. (class, etc.)

[dontel]

Probably Yao, and we wouldn't do that, so there's nothing we can offer that they'd accept or we'd accept. Too unrealistic.

maybe we could offer them yer sig and trade them for the 1st pick? im sure they'll bite.

[jove9]

How about
Houston Out:
Battier+Jackson+Hayes+Francis
Houston In:
Jaric+Walker+2nd Pick

Minnesota Out:
Walker+Jaric+ 2nd pick
Minnesota In:
Bobby Jackson+Francis+Rasho+08 first Hou
Toronto out:
Rasho
Toronto in:
Battier+Hayes

Edit: Never mind that probably will not do it Walker is an expiring next year too

Good thing you recinded, because that has got to be one of THE WORST trade proposals in the history of RealGm.

Congratulations!

[texasholdem]

-= original quote snipped =-



Billups is 6'3'' and weighs 200 pounds, Baron Davis is 6'3'', 210lbs. Hell even Prime Francis was 6'3'' and close to 200 lbs. Have you not seen what they are capable of in this league? That's considerable size advantage over most PGs in the league. Rose's size advantage is probably what separates him from the other draft prospects. I am not saying Rose will abuse the NBA PGs starting Day 1, but give him a couple of years and he'll be one of the premier big PGs in the league.

that's my point. there are a lot of big NBA point guards. Baron Davis, Chauncey Billups, Deron Wiliams, Gilbert Arenas, Andre Miller, Jose Calderon, Jamal Crawford, Antonio Daniels, Delonte West, Jason Kidd, Randy Foye, Devin Harris, Shaun Livingston? Leandro Barbosa those are about a dozen PGs who are as big as Rose size-wise. Nash and Paul and Parker are smaller but strong for their size.

So what I'm saying is he needs to develop his skills and not just rely on his size/athleticism to become a superstar.

[TMU]

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that's my point. there are a lot of big NBA point guards. Baron Davis, Chauncey Billups, Deron Wiliams, Gilbert Arenas, Andre Miller, Jose Calderon, Jamal Crawford, Antonio Daniels, Delonte West, Jason Kidd, Randy Foye, Devin Harris, Shaun Livingston? Leandro Barbosa those are about a dozen PGs who are as big as Rose size-wise. Nash and Paul and Parker are smaller but strong for their size.

So what I'm saying is he needs to develop his skills and not just rely on his size/athleticism to become a superstar.

Good argument, I guess I wasn't clear. I was making reference to PGs who uses their strength to gain advantage over their opponents. So out of the players you have listed, I can hand-select only a few that fits in my description. I think Rose will mold into the likes of such players.

The bolded part, we all agree with. But earlier I did mention that i believe he will develop his skills, particularly a perimeter game.

[tisbee]

First,the Rockets have 4-FOUR!!!-shoot first PGs. I fail to see how adding another to the collection would help unless the NBA is going to a 6'4" and under league. In Adelmans' full system the ability to shoot 3s is slightly downgraded as he wants motion and the ability to score off back cuts,etc. Only McGrady can take the ball and create open looks for his teammates. I would rather have the playmaker not the shottaker.
There are a couple of teams that you could imagine making a trade for McGrady,but why would Rockets do so? McGrady has kept the Rockets in the Playoffs the past two yrs when Yao went down.Anyway 2 possible trades-altho Vator had the right answer!
1)Memphis has 3 young PGs.Altho they want big man help and could have their pick of the 08 bigs,let's aasume they would take T-Mac to sell tickets and help the kids grow. Trade while 08 contracts are in effect.
T-Mac,Hayes to Memphis for Miller,Cardinal and Brown(cap relief) and the pick.
2)Riley has always wanted T-Mac.
T-Mac,Hayes for Haslem,Davis(exp),Williams(exp) and the pick.

[PocketRockets]

First,the Rockets have 4-FOUR!!!-shoot first PGs. I fail to see how adding another to the collection would help unless the NBA is going to a 6'4" and under league. In Adelmans' full system the ability to shoot 3s is slightly downgraded as he wants motion and the ability to score off back cuts,etc. Only McGrady can take the ball and create open looks for his teammates. I would rather have the playmaker not the shottaker.
There are a couple of teams that you could imagine making a trade for McGrady,but why would Rockets do so? McGrady has kept the Rockets in the Playoffs the past two yrs when Yao went down.Anyway 2 possible trades-altho Vator had the right answer!
1)Memphis has 3 young PGs.Altho they want big man help and could have their pick of the 08 bigs,let's aasume they would take T-Mac to sell tickets and help the kids grow. Trade while 08 contracts are in effect.
T-Mac,Hayes to Memphis for Miller,Cardinal and Brown(cap relief) and the pick.
2)Riley has always wanted T-Mac.
T-Mac,Hayes for Haslem,Davis(exp),Williams(exp) and the pick.

Dude, the MEM trade is a joke and I think the Heat trade is giving up too much from MIA's standpoint. Then again, a T-Mac, wade, and marion lineup is just sick!!! In the East they would probably be a 2/3 seed with a decent Big. Rockets would be depleted however =/ I would rather go the way of Boston and gut the team and get a big name. Yao-Mac-big name would be less of a gamble in my opinion (I think college players are over-rated, sorry).

[RawTmacSkillz]

This guy is overrated..i wish some of you had seen the tournament..the rockets shouldnt deal away tmac or yao..its insane i tell xpecially since dude is UMPROVEN..maybe we shouldve traded tmac for oden...then we wouldve been i hell cryin like babies

[TMU]

This guy is overrated..i wish some of you had seen the tournament..the rockets shouldnt deal away tmac or yao..its insane i tell xpecially since dude is UMPROVEN..maybe we shouldve traded tmac for oden...then we wouldve been i hell cryin like babies

No one said we should deal McGrady or Yao for the rookie.

[RawTmacSkillz]

-= original quote snipped =-



No one said we should deal McGrady or Yao for the rookie.

No one said it? But it was implied..i mean someone let know of a way to get that # 1 or 2 pick without possibly trading either TMac or yao..and then get back at me..

Quite frankly the dream is retired.