Not as bad as they seem...

[Limca]

Lately there has been a lot of hate on this board for Bucks players. I can understand why - it has been a truly horrific season. But I think everyone is taking out their frustration on specific players. Mo, Redd, Bogut, CV, etc. all have people on here that either strongly support or unneccessarily rip these guys. I think everyone is missing the big picture.

Although the team was flawed in it's construction, the problem with this team was the coaching. Next year if we have the same exact squad, I could see this team improving by 10 games with a veteran, proven winning coach.

It was clear from the getgo that LK was utterly lost. His rotations were ridiculous and managed to alienate players right from the get go. Then the team completely lost respect for him with his constant flip-flopping of philospohy. Good coaches have their system/philospohy and believe it in from start to the bitter (most of the time) end. LK started with the triangle, then went to half-court slow paced defensive philosphy, only to switch to an uptempo team. No team would EVER follow a guy who doesn't believe in what he was doing.

All of the players on this team are defensively deficient. The only way we were going to win any games is if we outscored our opponenet. But the players were so confused with the lack of leadership up top, there was NEVER a chance for success.

I think the team LH assembled is a talented offensive group. When/if these players (i.e. Redd, Mo, CV) get shipped out and around the league you will see that they will have good, successful careers (I would probably guess that each one of these guys may even make the all-star game a few years depending on where they go). My hope is that Hammond understands what we have and doesn't give them away for pennies on the dollar.

[jeremyd236]

I completely agree for the most part. People on here question how a new coach could improve our team's wins if the players still play the same and on the same roles.

Well there's the answer right there....our players will not behave the same under a veteran coach. A young team with a young coach just isn't a good match. Suddenly the "chucking" Redd who gets isos called for him in the 4th will be playing through the team's offense with PG doing what he's supposed to - distrubute the ball.

It'd be really interesting to see how our team would have been with the same roster but a great coach (Larry Brown, etc.). But I still think the team's construction has flaws and changes need to be made. I'd like to see Mo gone and a tougher front court, meaning the CV/Yi 4-rotation needs to be broken up.

[Buck You]

Lately there has been a lot of hate on this board for Bucks players. I can understand why - it has been a truly horrific season. But I think everyone is taking out their frustration on specific players. Mo, Redd, Bogut, CV, etc. all have people on here that either strongly support or unneccessarily rip these guys. I think everyone is missing the big picture.

Although the team was flawed in it's construction, the problem with this team was the coaching. Next year if we have the same exact squad, I could see this team improving by 10 games with a veteran, proven winning coach.

It was clear from the getgo that LK was utterly lost. His rotations were ridiculous and managed to alienate players right from the get go. Then the team completely lost respect for him with his constant flip-flopping of philospohy. Good coaches have their system/philospohy and believe it in from start to the bitter (most of the time) end. LK started with the triangle, then went to half-court slow paced defensive philosphy, only to switch to an uptempo team. No team would EVER follow a guy who doesn't believe in what he was doing.

All of the players on this team are defensively deficient. The only way we were going to win any games is if we outscored our opponenet. But the players were so confused with the lack of leadership up top, there was NEVER a chance for success.

I think the team LH assembled is a talented offensive group. When/if these players (i.e. Redd, Mo, CV) get shipped out and around the league you will see that they will have good, successful careers (I would probably guess that each one of these guys may even make the all-star game a few years depending on where they go). My hope is that Hammond understands what we have and doesn't give them away for pennies on the dollar.

So we'll win 36 games. Yay! We need some personnel changes if we ever want to a perennial playoff contender.

[Epicurus]

No less than 50-55 wins should be expected with this same team and one of the immortals being mentioned as coach. 2years ago it was a 40 win team and then until injury going for at least that, if not 45. The gm at the beginning said it was a better team this season so kick that to a sure 45 wins. An immortal must mean at least 5 more wins. So demand the firing of any immortal who will be paid more than the greatest dream, if the team does not go from an artifiical 27-28 games to at minimum 50games, with the same players plus a draft choice or two (replacing the worst of this year). I can't believe that the initiator of this thread was already lowballing to a 10 win improvement with an immortal as head coach. We have learned here that a 10 win improvement by a new coach is indeed something to sneeze at.

[Limca]

I agree CV/Yi has to be broken up. But I don't agree with specifically Mo getting shipped out. In order to have LT success we need defenders. If could get a shutdown defender at SF or SG for Redd, I'd be fine with that. All the Mo hate is getting out of control. I don't think he's a cancer and that he's the root cause of this teams problems. He will flourish in the right situation. But if we traded him and Bobby for Artest, I would be happy. We need defenders any which way we can find them - otherwise this team's max potential will always be 1 and done in the playoffs.

[Andrew34r]

This team may improve slightly under a different coach but if you dont think major changes have to be made with this group of players than your crazy. This is one of the worst assembled "teams" I have ever witnessed play together. Luckily I think the new GM gets that and hopefully has enough power to make sure Herb and his boyfriends know that too.

[Limca]

Wow I never said that we shouldn't make any moves. I just think that LK lost this team and was ill-prepared to be an NBA head coach.

Epi I actually think that Stotts did the best out of our inexperienced HC's (Stotts, Porter, and LK). He was more prepared to be a HC and he was getting the most of a poorly constructed offensive minded roster. He stuck to his philosophy/offense despite everyone crying for the highly touted, ill prepared rookie to get more touches. To me, that's the sign of a good coach. LK on the other hand flip flopped and lost the team.

Actually that's entirely my point. A good, experienced coach would have been able to get this team additional wins simply by sticking with his beliefs. This years team quit on their coach and ended up with less wins than a team that was intentionally trying to tank.

[worthlessBucks]

Lately there has been a lot of hate on this board for Bucks players. I can understand why - it has been a truly horrific season. But I think everyone is taking out their frustration on specific players. Mo, Redd, Bogut, CV, etc. all have people on here that either strongly support or unneccessarily rip these guys. I think everyone is missing the big picture.

Although the team was flawed in it's construction, the problem with this team was the coaching. Next year if we have the same exact squad, I could see this team improving by 10 games with a veteran, proven winning coach.

It was clear from the getgo that LK was utterly lost. His rotations were ridiculous and managed to alienate players right from the get go. Then the team completely lost respect for him with his constant flip-flopping of philospohy. Good coaches have their system/philospohy and believe it in from start to the bitter (most of the time) end. LK started with the triangle, then went to half-court slow paced defensive philosphy, only to switch to an uptempo team. No team would EVER follow a guy who doesn't believe in what he was doing.

All of the players on this team are defensively deficient. The only way we were going to win any games is if we outscored our opponenet. But the players were so confused with the lack of leadership up top, there was NEVER a chance for success.

I think the team LH assembled is a talented offensive group. When/if these players (i.e. Redd, Mo, CV) get shipped out and around the league you will see that they will have good, successful careers (I would probably guess that each one of these guys may even make the all-star game a few years depending on where they go). My hope is that Hammond understands what we have and doesn't give them away for pennies on the dollar.

This team can't get much worse and I'm sure they would improve with a new coach, but winning 10 more games still does very little in terms of showing their talents. 36 wins would still miss out on the playoffs in a really crappy East year (such as this one). Plus, if 36 wins is what this squad could accomplish with a great coach, then Larry Harris shouldn't work another day in the NBA, outside of being a video guy of course.

We've managed to go through several coaches, although very inexperienced ones, and it's become evident that coaching isn't 100 percent the issue here. The talent on the team is a very unique combination of selfish, one dimensional, unmotivated, and stupid. There needs to be an overhaul, there's just no justification for keeping most of them.

[Limca]

I agree changes need to be made. But these players are talented. We shouldn't give them away for pennies on the dollar. I'm glad CV had a few good games toward the end of the season to showcase his ability. I defeinitely want to see the roster changed to a more defensive team. Defense wins championships.

[Limca]

I guess I'm just sick of hearing all these unsubstantiated rumours of Mo being a cancer. He's a talented player and will do really well in a Bibby, Bobby Jackson, Jason Terry role. Everyone knows his flaws, but this isn't Zach Randolf we are talking about. As shown in the other thread Bogut is getting less shots with him out. I saw him cheering when Sessions hit the game winner. The guy wants to win he's just a pathetic defender and a bad fit on this team. But if could package him for ANY kind of defender I'd be fine with it. Same goes for Redd, CV, Yi, or anyone else on the roster.

The problem with THIS team was that nobody knew their role. Was this an uptempo team? (Mo's team) We were going to try being the Lakers/Bulls with the triangle? (Redd's team) Were we going to be a halfcourt team? (Bogut's team) Did CV have a right to be pissed about not starting for a Rookie who never played college and never earned his stripes? (I think so) This team was screwed up from the get go and LK was a big part of that.

[BucksRuleAll22]

Nobody complains about Bogut. Its mostly Mo, Redd then CV. Team has chemestry problems and Mo is not a PG. Mo and Redd are scorers that have no D. CV is a great scorer as well with no D.

[Limca]

"Plus, if 36 wins is what this squad could accomplish with a great coach, then Larry Harris shouldn't work another day in the NBA, outside of being a video guy of course."

Keep in mind that LH was somewhat hamstrung not being able to bring in defenders. He tried to get Marion but was shot-down by ownership. But to me, that still doesn't excuse him from bringing in this squad of no defense playing scorers. LH was definitely at fault for not putting together a balanced team and wasting precious salary dollars (i.e. Voshkul, Mason, overpaying Redd & Simmons)


"We've managed to go through several coaches, although very inexperienced ones, and it's become evident that coaching isn't 100 percent the issue here. The talent on the team is a very unique combination of selfish, one dimensional, unmotivated, and stupid. There needs to be an overhaul, there's just no justification for keeping most of them."

This is exactly the hate I'm talking about. Selfish and unmotivated could have been mitigated with a better coach. And "stupid" is just pure hatred. I know you're upset. Everyone's upset. But I grow so tired of hearing opinions like "douche, stupid, low bball IQ, etc." I understand everyone's frustrated with this team, but how does anyone know if a player has a low or high bball iq? Did you give them a quiz? Did you goto practice? Do you know what plays were called? Does everyone not realize that over the last 3 or 4 years Redd gets called a ton of iso's a game because he was the most efficient scorer on the team? And can someone explain to me how to quantify bball IQ?

[dunhill]

BBall IQ - proper floor spacing, passing out of double teams, situational awareness ie not dribbling for 20 secs in the 4th and then shooting an off balance fadeaway in the face of a double team, shot selection, defensive positioning, recognizing the hot hand. All of which the Bucks do poorly. Whether that's a cause of caoaching or poor play that's up to you. I say its both

[Rockmaninoff]

Limca - I agree with most everything you have said in this thread. I've tried my best to express these thoughts before (of course, at different times and not all in one thread), but people with concrete notions are uneasily moved.

You are right about the players not having defined roles this year. I went to the preseason game in Minneapolis, and noticed and wrote then that it was a free-for-all. No rhyme or reason.

When I read LK state that training camp was going to be almost entirely devoted to defense, it was an immediate red flag. That's because a team has to build their offense before the defense. The greatest basketball god, Red Auerbach, said it himself. I read that LK wanted to change the not so much the offense, but the rotation, and I knew we were doomed.

At that time I wrote to Harris that if this was LK's plan, he had to give every player a fixed role. No confusion, everybody doing what they do best. Three scorers, a sixth man, and defined roles for the role players. LK wanted to be the Spurs and Pistons, but he didn't realize that it is their methodical offense that is the catalyst for the defensive prowess. He just thought that hustle would get it done.

Epi wrote in another thread that the goal this year should have been a top 10 offense and a top 20 defense. I reached this same conclusion prior to this season, with the guidance of Epi's writting during the 2006/2007 season, Sidney Lanier's (a treasure of a basketball mind) JSonline forum defense of Stotts and the 3 guard offense, and Matt from JSonline's thread regarding how a great offense and an average defense can contend.

Stotts was a good coach. If you guys don't believe me, I can bump my 'Blowouts' thread, and we can compare him and LK. I wonder why LK hasn't received the same treatment that Stotts did, being a worse coach and all. I think it's a cult of personality thing.

Anyway, if Stotts would have had a strong management structure in place, he could have been a very successful coach here. I read people criticize his leadership skills, but I wonder what exactly everyone is looking for? Someone they themselves would personally follow? A man's man like LK who has certainly been a better leader. That text should have been green.

Give Stotts Al Horford, an updated Ruben Patterson, a muzzle for Andrew Bogut, and this team would have been a top 10 offense and a top 20 defense. And, if we couldn't deal for Horford, I'm guessing Stotts would have been the perfect coach for Yi.

As far as the verbal slights directed toward certain players, I never try to do that. I don't know any of these people personally, but from observation and statistical analysis I've deduced that they don't have a shared camaraderie, and the don't compliment each other on the floor. That could be a lot of things. The players personalities and games, a poor leadership structure, poor management, poor coaching, etc. But, the way some on these forums spit vitriol laced hate towards these people is disgusting. If you think you can judge and hate these people you probably don't know, maybe you should take a break and a deep breath.

I just want to watch a team that is having fun, and that likes each other.

I'm rambling here, but it's all relative.

[EastSideBucksFan]

Lately there has been a lot of hate on this board for Bucks players. I can understand why - it has been a truly horrific season. But I think everyone is taking out their frustration on specific players. Mo, Redd, Bogut, CV, etc. all have people on here that either strongly support or unneccessarily rip these guys. I think everyone is missing the big picture.

Although the team was flawed in it's construction, the problem with this team was the coaching. Next year if we have the same exact squad, I could see this team improving by 10 games with a veteran, proven winning coach.

It was clear from the getgo that LK was utterly lost. His rotations were ridiculous and managed to alienate players right from the get go. Then the team completely lost respect for him with his constant flip-flopping of philospohy. Good coaches have their system/philospohy and believe it in from start to the bitter (most of the time) end. LK started with the triangle, then went to half-court slow paced defensive philosphy, only to switch to an uptempo team. No team would EVER follow a guy who doesn't believe in what he was doing.

All of the players on this team are defensively deficient. The only way we were going to win any games is if we outscored our opponenet. But the players were so confused with the lack of leadership up top, there was NEVER a chance for success.

I think the team LH assembled is a talented offensive group. When/if these players (i.e. Redd, Mo, CV) get shipped out and around the league you will see that they will have good, successful careers (I would probably guess that each one of these guys may even make the all-star game a few years depending on where they go). My hope is that Hammond understands what we have and doesn't give them away for pennies on the dollar.

Are you Ron Walter?

[Limca]

"Are you Ron Walter?"

No I just find it unneccessary to hate. Look I'm all in favor of blowing up this team. We need DEFENDERS. I've felt this same feeling over the last 15 years. But defenders are not easy to find, so instead the past GM's, coaches, regimes have tried to get the next best thing: A team that can score and entertain, but not ever seriously compete for a championship.

The point of this thread to me is that there is a market for offensive minded, no defense players (see Suns, Golden State, etc.). We shouldn't give away our players for nothing. We can get value for Redd, Mo, CV, Yi, etc. That could mean cap-space, lottery picks, etc. People believe that Bogut is untouchable, but keep in mind that Hammond did state he will make moves that are unpopular. I'm not sure how likely it is because solid centers are hard to find, but it's not out of the realm of possibility that he is dealt.

Would I mind? NO! I have NO attachments to these players. I have an attachment to the BUCKS. And I want to see a WINNER! Even if that means JVG is our coach and the Bucks win games 79-73.

[europa]

I wonder why LK hasn't received the same treatment that Stotts did, being a worse coach and all.

He has. Krystkowiak has been (rightfully in my opinion) criticized heavily for being a bad head coach. I do think one significant difference is he doesn't have two friends posting here. That's not a knock on epi and bigzy, just pointing out that the two of them carried on discussions about Stotts for longer periods because they (understandably) wanted to defend their friend. Krystkowiak doesn't have that in this forum so the discussions often end sooner and drift elsewhere.

[Rockmaninoff]

-= original quote snipped =-

He has. Krystkowiak has been (rightfully in my opinion) criticized heavily for being a bad head coach. I do think one significant difference is he doesn't have two friends posting here. That's not a knock on epi and bigzy, just pointing out that the two of them carried on discussions about Stotts for longer periods because they (understandably) wanted to defend their friend. Krystkowiak doesn't have that in this forum so the discussions often end sooner and drift elsewhere.

Good point.

[Rockmaninoff]

People believe that Bogut is untouchable, but keep in mind that Hammond did state he will make moves that are unpopular. I'm not sure how likely it is because solid centers are hard to find, but it's not out of the realm of possibility that he is dealt.

I've been thinking about this a lot the last couple of days. Is Bogut's Hamlet routine one of the team's biggest issues? Or, is it a symptom of the overall disfunction.

Can Yi be a starting center with a little added strength?

[EastSideBucksFan]

"Are you Ron Walter?"

No I just find it unneccessary to hate. Look I'm all in favor of blowing up this team. We need DEFENDERS. I've felt this same feeling over the last 15 years. But defenders are not easy to find, so instead the past GM's, coaches, regimes have tried to get the next best thing: A team that can score and entertain, but not ever seriously compete for a championship.

The point of this thread to me is that there is a market for offensive minded, no defense players (see Suns, Golden State, etc.). We shouldn't give away our players for nothing. We can get value for Redd, Mo, CV, Yi, etc. That could mean cap-space, lottery picks, etc. People believe that Bogut is untouchable, but keep in mind that Hammond did state he will make moves that are unpopular. I'm not sure how likely it is because solid centers are hard to find, but it's not out of the realm of possibility that he is dealt.

Would I mind? NO! I have NO attachments to these players. I have an attachment to the BUCKS. And I want to see a WINNER! Even if that means JVG is our coach and the Bucks win games 79-73.

I honestly agree with most of what you are saying. But your point of view just sounds like management pleading with fans.