Where does he rank with the MVP?

abarl · Post #1 » by **abarl** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 6:19 pm

How much further up on the all time list does Kobe go if he does recieve this MVP?

I think folks at realgm have him ranked 22.

HarlemHeat37 · Post #2 » by **HarlemHeat37** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 6:48 pm

I don't think the MVP makes a HUGE difference..the difference for Kobe will be if he wins a title as a #1 option in the next few years..that would surely put him ahead of David Robinson, Karl Malone and Dr. J IMO, possibly higher, depending on how he plays in the playoffs and how the supporting cast plays..

I thought he was better than the #22 that he was ranked here..I'd have him between #13-#16 with the MVP award, which isn't a big change from where I had him before..

abarl · Post #3 » by **abarl** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 6:51 pm

I agree HH that the title will go a much longer way in boosting your overall rank especially if you are the key component.

I was just thinking when evaluating all time lists where seperation between players may be very minimal a big time award like the MVP could help push players over the top of other players.

HarlemHeat37 · Post #4 » by **HarlemHeat37** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 6:56 pm

it definitely does rank him higher, but I just don't think it makes a HUGE difference..when you reach the point of the top 15 players of all-time, most of those guys already have MVP awards, and a lot of them have multiple MVP awards..

RoyceDa59 · Post #5 » by **RoyceDa59** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 7:08 pm

Which is exactly why Kobe winning an MVP (or two - I expect one this season and one more before his production drops), is a very important element to his all-time ranking. To even crack the top 15 you need an MVP, in my opinion. Kobe statistically can match up to most of those players, and his 3 titles helps in the success category, but individually the MVP will solidify that at some point, on paper, he was the best player in the league.

A title or two with the accompaning finals MVP(s), along with a few regular season MVP's, and 4-5 more seasons of 28-6-5, followed by a few more of 20-25 / 5 / 4, will surely launch Kobe into the top 12 or so all-time, maybe even higher. He could finish as high as 7th in my honest opinion behind the obvious top 6 - MJ, Wilt, Kareem, Magic, Bird and Russell.

KNICKS1970 · Post #6 » by **KNICKS1970** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 7:23 pm

Jerry West never won an MVP award, and he's a Top 10 player in my book, so an MVP award isn't necessarily mandatory, although it definitely helps.

On my list winning the MVP puts Kobe in the Top 12 or so, just behind Duncan and Olajuwon but ahead of Karl Malone, Dr. J, and Petit.

Post #7 » by **penbeast0** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 8:49 pm

I don't think winning an MVP would be enough to have Kobe pass Erving; Erving has a couple of them and he was the heart of soul of an entire league. If he combines the MVP with an NBA title with this team, it could move him ahead of Robinson, Malone, and Pettit on my lists. If he continues the level of more unselfish play that he performed at this year for another 3 or 4 years, then he could pass Erving and Oscar Robertson also.

Jordan23Forever · Post #8 » by **Jordan23Forever** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:28 am

I have Kobe in the 19-22 range. An MVP alone would move him to 16-19, and an MVP + title (assuming a Finals MVP) would move him up to the 14-17 range imo.

JordansBulls · Post #9 » by **JordansBulls** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 1:30 am

penbeast0 wrote:I don't think winning an MVP would be enough to have Kobe pass Erving; Erving has a couple of them and he was the heart of soul of an entire league. If he combines the MVP with an NBA title with this team, it could move him ahead of Robinson, Malone, and Pettit on my lists. If he continues the level of more unselfish play that he performed at this year for another 3 or 4 years, then he could pass Erving and Oscar Robertson also.

I think many consider Kobe and the Doctor equal at this point in time. With a MVP many will consider him better.

tracey_nice · Post #10 » by **tracey_nice** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 1:31 am

It is hard to move up higher than 1

etopn23 · Post #11 » by **etopn23** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 1:40 am

HarlemHeat37 wrote:I don't think the MVP makes a HUGE difference..the difference for Kobe will be if he wins a title as a #1 option in the next few years..that would surely put him ahead of David Robinson, Karl Malone and Dr. J IMO, possibly higher, depending on how he plays in the playoffs and how the supporting cast plays..

I thought he was better than the #22 that he was ranked here..I'd have him between #13-#16 with the MVP award, which isn't a big change from where I had him before..

What specifically would make Kobe move ahead of Dr. J?

wigglestrue · Post #12 » by **wigglestrue** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 3:24 am

I think many consider Kobe and the Doctor equal at this point in time. With a MVP many will consider him better.

That sure happened quick. :roll:

I was just getting used to Kobe being in my top 15-20. He's not even close to being better than Dr. J yet, unless one is saying Kobe is already top 10.

JordansBulls · Post #13 » by **JordansBulls** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 4:32 am

tracey_nice wrote:It is hard to move up higher than 15

Fixed.

Oh and back it up.

Minge · Post #14 » by **Minge** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 5:12 am

01 Jordan
02 Johnson
03 Bird
04 Chamberlain
05 Abdul-Jabbar
06 Russell
07 West
08 Duncan
09 O'Neal
10 Erving
11 Bryant
12 Robertson
13 Olajuwon
14 Karl Malone
15 Cousy
16 Moses Malone
17 Havlicek
18 Pettit
19 Garnett
20 Barkley
21 Robinson
22 Iverson
23 Baylor
24 Pippen
25 Mikan
26 Reed
27 Thomas
28 McAdoo
29 Nash
30 Nowitzki

If Bryant wins a championship this year, I'd move him above Julius Erving.
If Garnett wins a championship this year, I'd move him about Karl Malone.

Retrolock · Post #15 » by **Retrolock** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 5:16 am

11 Bryant
12 Robertson
13 Olajuwon

no.

Minge · Post #16 » by **Minge** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 5:29 am

Argue 3 straight championships (With O'Neal), lost in the Finals on a 4th attempt, 1 MVP, and a perienal candidate on the 1st teams All-NBA and All-defense. Considered the best player in the league.

To the Big O, who won 1 championship (With Jabbar), lost in the Finals on a 2nd attempt, averaged a triple double (over five seasons), 1 MVP, and a perienal candidate on the 1st team All-NBA.

To the Dream, who won back-to-back championships (Once with Drexler), lost in the Finals on 1st attempt, 1 MVP, 2 DPOY, and a perienal candidate on the 1st and 2nd teams All-NBA and All-defense.

I only think you can argue Dream over Robertson, but I ranked him higher statistically.

Note: In retrospect, Bryant is considered the 2nd best SG of all-time. Robertson is considered the 2nd best PG of all-time. Olajuwon isn't even in the top 3 at C of all-time (ranked 5th).

Please, make your argument. I made mine fairly clear. It's how I look at these players as of today. The NBA is about winning in both the regular and post-seasons, impact on the game on/off the court, perception as an all-time player by position, statistics, all-star appearances, all-league awards, etc.

I've read a lot, but nothing substantial. Give me your list, I've thought mine out.

wigglestrue · Post #17 » by **wigglestrue** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 5:48 am

Dude.

NO.

wigglestrue · Post #18 » by **wigglestrue** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:56 am

Minge wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

Please, make your argument. I made mine fairly clear. It's how I look at these players as of today. The NBA is about winning in both the regular and post-seasons, impact on the game on/off the court, perception as an all-time player by position, statistics, all-star appearances, all-league awards, etc.

I've read a lot, but nothing substantial. Give me your list, I've thought mine out.

I've posted my all-time list about, oh, 100 times on this board. I really don't feel like re-typing that **** for a 101st time at the behest of somebody who has Kobe Bryant ranked over Oscar Robertson and Olajuwon. But whatever...it's something like this:

1. Jordan
2. Wilt
3. Russell
4. Kareem
5. Magic
6. Bird
7. Oscar
8. West
(...starts to get murky)

9. Dr. J
10. Hakeem
11. Shaq
12. Duncan
13. Moses
(...then it gets even murkier)

The next 12 or so spots go to some combo of these players:
PF/C - Elgin/K. Malone/Pettit/Robinson/Garnett/Barkley
SG/SF - Kobe/Havlicek/Barry/Gervin/LeBron
PG - Cousy/Frazier/Stockton/Isiah

Kobe's in the 15-20 range right now, MVP or not.

Minge · Post #19 » by **Minge** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 7:39 am

Thanks. I'll write my reasons:

01 Jordan (he is the face of basketball, ranked 1st all-time SG)
02 Johnson (rivalry revived the league, ranked 1st all-time PG)
03 Bird (rivalry revived the league, ranked 1st all-time SF)
04 Chamberlain (all over the record book, ranked 2nd all-time C)
05 Abdul-Jabbar (rings and mvps rival MJ, ranked 1st all-time C)
06 Russell (the most rings in league history, ranked 3rd all-time C)
07 West (the logo of the league, ranked 3rd all-time SG)
08 Duncan (russell-esque impact, ranked 1st all-time PF)
09 O'Neal (the most unique talent in league, ranked 4th all-time C)
10 Erving (the face of the aba/nba merger, ranked 2nd all-time SF)
11 Bryant (best all-around player since MJ, ranked 2nd all-time SG)
12 Robertson (averaged triple double, ranked 2nd all-time PG)
13 Olajuwon (redefined low-post footwork, ranked 5th all-time C)
14 Karl Malone (redefined pick and rolls, ranked 2nd all-time PF)
15 Cousy (impact of championships, ranked 5th all-time PG)
16 Moses Malone (fo' fo' fo', ranked 6th all-time C)
17 Havlicek (best pure shooter in history, ranked 5th all-time SF)
18 Pettit (redefined power forward position, ranked 5th all-time PF)
19 Garnett (lacks championships, ranked 6th all-time PF)
20 Barkley (lacks championships, ranked 3rd all-time PF)
21 Robinson (face of spurs franchise, ranked 8th all-time C)
22 Iverson (lacks championships, ranked 5th all-time SG)
23 Baylor (brought hangtime to league, ranked 3rd all-time SF)
24 Pippen (perienial two-way side-kick, ranked 4th all-time SF)
25 Mikan (first league dynasty, ranked 9th all-time C)
26 Reed (face of knicks franchise, singlehandedly influenced a title)
27 Thomas (the first dominant little man, ranked 3rd all-time PG)
28 McAdoo (the first perimeter oriented power forward/center)
29 Nash (lacks championships, ranked 9th all-time PG)
30 Nowitzki (lacks championships, ranked 10th all-time PF)

I could elaborate, but ESPN has not made an all-time SF list (speculation on my behalf).

On Bryant: championships, all-nba and all-defense selections, and all-time rank at position. Not to mention popularity/sales, the rivalry with Shaquille O'Neal remains a selling point of league.

EHL · Post #20 » by **EHL** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 8:06 am

wigglestrue wrote:
Minge wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

Please, make your argument. I made mine fairly clear. It's how I look at these players as of today. The NBA is about winning in both the regular and post-seasons, impact on the game on/off the court, perception as an all-time player by position, statistics, all-star appearances, all-league awards, etc.

I've read a lot, but nothing substantial. Give me your list, I've thought mine out.

I've posted my all-time list about, oh, 100 times on this board. I really don't feel like re-typing that **** for a 101st time at the behest of somebody who has Kobe Bryant ranked over Oscar Robertson and Olajuwon. But whatever...it's something like this:

1. Jordan
2. Wilt
3. Russell
4. Kareem
5. Magic
6. Bird
7. Oscar
8. West
(...starts to get murky)

9. Dr. J
10. Hakeem
11. Shaq
12. Duncan
13. Moses
(...then it gets even murkier)

The next 12 or so spots go to some combo of these players:
PF/C - Elgin/K. Malone/Pettit/Robinson/Garnett/Barkley
SG/SF - Kobe/Havlicek/Barry/Gervin/LeBron
PG - Cousy/Frazier/Stockton/Isiah

Kobe's in the 15-20 range right now, MVP or not.

Is this a bad inside joke? How in the hell is Dr. J ahead of Shaq, Duncan, and Hakeem?