Top 20 Players Ever, 2008 Playoffs Edition

KNICKS1970 · Post #1 » by **KNICKS1970** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:37 pm

Alright, this topic has been done roughly 92332523x over the last year or so, but the "Where Does Kobe rank with an MVP" topic made me realize that there are a ton of players, in this year alone, who could jump several rankings depending on how their team finishes. Kevin Garnett could make his case as a Top 20 player if the Celtics win a championship, Kobe could make his case as a Top 10 player if the Lakers win it all. A lot of these great players are winding down their careers, and unless you're completely biased, you have to consider these guys as some of the best to ever play the game.

Here's my list.

1. LeBron James

Just kidding. He's nowhere close to that now. Although I think I should point out that this is his trajectory and this is his ceiling. At 23 he's playing better than a lot of ATG players in the prime of their careers.

I think I should point out now that saying that a current or recent player is or could be better than a player from 10-20-30-40 years ago isn't not disrespecting the past or being a frontrunner for current players. For whatever reason, I think people are scared to give credit where credit is due to current players.

The consensus Top 2:

1. Michael Jordan
2. Wilt Chamberlain

The reasons have been said before, Jordan is the leader of the greatest dynasty since Russell's Celtics. That combined with his statistical prowess made him the Russell-Chamberlain of his generation. The one knock anyone gives him is that "he had no rivals", which actually enhances his argument as the GOAT. It wasn't that he didn't play in an era where the competition was "weak", it's just that he was really that much better than any other player playing in his era, and he won six titles in an era full of great big men in a league where big men have historically ruled. MJ had no real weaknesses, was still clearly the best player in the league in his mid-30s, and played at an All-Star level at 40. I think that puts him over the top.

I've usually knocked Wilt around in the past arguing these two, but that's not because I don't recognize what he's done. He's the most dominant player in NBA history, was the leader of two of the Top 5 teams in NBA history, and was successfully able to change his style from dominant scorer to facilitator/defensive presence as his career wound down. And I think that in an All-Time Fantasy Draft, Chamberlain would go #1 without a moment of hesitation from anyone. I think you definitely have to factor that in, which is why even though he has the least amount of championships of anyone in the consensus Top 6, he's in everyone's Top 2 and ranked GOAT by many.

However, I do think that the fact that he was a liability at crunch time and did not come through in many big game situations. Although he won the Finals MVP award, he did play the sidekick to Jerry West on those Lakers teams. Also, I think the fact he was traded twice hurts him. For many reasons, both on and off the court, Michael Jordan was the most untradeable player in the history of not just the NBA, but the history of team sports. I'd love for someone to give more insight on this.

I go Jordan over Wilt, but unlike a lot of Wilt or MJ fans, I don't think you go wrong with either one. I think these two guys are clearly the top 2 players ever, and I try not to be dismissive of other's opinions, but if I honestly feel that any list that doesn't have MJ and Wilt as the top 2 shouldn't be taken seriously at all. Sorry.

The Consensus 3-6.

3. Bill Russell
4. Magic Johnson
5. Larry Bird
6. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

Here's where it gets a little murkier. Bill Russell is the greatest winner in the history of American sports and thats why he's #3. I think his defensive prowess along with his leadership qualities puts him over there in my view. People like to think that he was surrounded by such overpowering talent, but I do not think for a second that Wilt, Kareem, or even Jordan would have won 11 championships with that team. As a team leader, he has absolutely no peers. The big argument against him was that he wasn't the dominant offensive player that a lot of these guys were, but I think that if he could, he would and could put up 30 PPG if his team needed it. Russ is the ultimate example of someone doing whatever it took to win.

I don't rank him ahead of Wilt, even though I do not think Wilt would win 11 championships in his situation and Russell would win more than 2 in his situation, because Wilt was just so astoundingly and statistically dominant for his era. If Russell would've shut out Wilt, maybe I'd think differently. But Wilt won a title while Russell was playing, that plus the 72 championship and Finals MVP plus his stats puts him over Russell.

Magic and Bird are so intertwined together throughout their careers and beyond, one has to follow the other. Magic lead one of the only 4 dynasties in NBA history, but Bird at his peak was the better player. People forget this now, but there was legitimate debate in the mid-80s about whether Bird was the best player ever. Just look up the Larry Bird articles at the Sports Illustrated Vault - http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/. But I think that Magic stayed consistently great, while Bird started to break down once the 90s hit. When things are close, I feel like championships decide things, and Magic beats Bird 5-3.

Unfortunately, that puts Kareem out of the Top 5, even though he probably has the best resume out of any player ever. But at their peaks, Bill Walton and Moses Malone completely outplayed him. They didn't last nearly as long, but it's worth factoring in. I don't think anyone else in the top 6 got outplayed by non-Top 10 players like Kareem did.

The Next Tier

7. Shaquille O'Neal
8. Tim Duncan
9. Jerry West
10. Oscar Robertson
11. Hakeem Olajuwon

Like Wilt, Shaq has been traded twice which probably hurts him, but he's been to the Finals with every team he's been on and won 4 times. Duncan has just as many titles and has done them with good teams but without a superstar sidekick (although if they win this year, Manu Ginobli might qualify). It's hard to think this way for whatever reason, but they really are the 2000s equivalent to Bird and Magic, almost right down to the archetypes. Unlike Bird and Magic, I'd rank the more dominant guy ahead of the more consistent career as of this moment, because Shaq arguably was the MDE when he was in his absolute prime.

I'd rank West at #8 despite the fact he only won 1 championship and zero MVP awards. For starters, he was in the championship hunt every year and although he lost numerous times to Russell's Celtics, he may have been the most clutch player in all those series, and even won the Finals MVP in a losing effort. I don't think you necessarily go wrong with ranking Big O above West (he did win an MVP and a championship), but watching whatever old games I've seen and just reading about the two, I'm more impressed with The Logo.

I think if you lay out the resumes and the types of players each of these guys are, I'd rank the current players over the older guys. It's may seem controversial, but I think we need to get past the hesitation of moving some of the current players ahead of the older players. Duncan and Shaq's resumes dwarf West and Oscar's, and I think it's fair to say in an All-Time Fantasy Draft they'd probably get picked first. So why would West or Oscar be ranked first? Because they played in an arbitrarily designated "weak era"? Sorry, but I think that's one of the weakest arguments anyone can make. West and Robertson won titles in an era when some of the best players in the country were playing in a completely separate league. Why don't isn't that considered that a "weak era"? Every era is different, but that doesn't necessarily make one "weaker" or "tougher" than the others.

I loved Olajuwon, but I think he gets a little overrated on these boards. Mostly because he's flashier than O'Neal and Duncan on both offensive and defensive ends of the court, and he had two absolutely awesome seasons (1992-1993 and 1993-1994) and carried his team to one of the most memorable playoff runs in NBA history (1995). But it's commonly accepted that Olajuwon was the 2nd greatest player of the Jordan era, and after leading the Rockets to two titles he was, but I think people have forgotten that from 1990-1993, Charles Barkley was probably the 2nd best player in the league after Jordan. Then he was knocked off that perch by Karl Malone in the second half of the decade.

I think it's close between all these guys, but I like the resumes of the big guys and the two little guys from the 60s more than Hakeem, but you could easily make the case that he's better than all these guys and I'd understand the rationale.

Doc vs. Kobe

12. Julius Erving
13. Kobe Bryant

Doc is the blueprint for all the great swingmen that play today. I don't necessarily buy into the whole "if so-and-so played in today's game, they would be just as good as they were in the 60s/70s/80s" line of thinking, but I think that Dr. J is one of those players who really would be as good, or even better, in today's game. I really wish that the ABA merger occured in the early 70s instead of the mid-70s, because I do think that it's tough to measure how good a lot of those players were with separated stats. The best argument for Doc is that as soon as he went to the NBA, he carried the Sixers to the NBA Finals. He was truly ahead of his time.

I'm ranking Kobe at #13, even if he doesn't win the MVP this year. Kobe is a more skilled player, a better scorer, a better defensive player, and he was a major cog on one of the great championship runs (not a dynasty) in NBA history. Shaq was the best and most dominant player on the team, but other than the first championship, it's faulty memory to just categorize Kobe as a "sidekick". He's been the best all-around swingman in the league for nearly a decade, since he was 21 years old. He's one of the four or five most clutch performers in NBA history. And to flip the script, I think that Kobe is one of those "all-era" guys like, well, like everyone in the Top 20 or so. He'd be good in any era, so using the whole "Doc played in the 80s!" argument doesn't really hold water in my view.

But I'm putting Kobe a rung below Doc. What holds him back is that he was a big part of why Shaq left the Lakers. Not exempting Shaq from all that drama, but O'Neal did prove with the Heat and with the Suns that he is willing to take a back seat when the time was right. If Kobe had been a better team player, the Shaq-Kobe Lakers could've been a legitimate dynasty, with Kobe taking the reigns a la Magic when the big man started to break down. I think he's a better player than Doc, but he's not a GREATER player, if that makes any sense. The whole Shaq-Kobe drama and aftermath have to be factored in.

That said, if part of that aftermath includes the Lakers winning the title and Kobe winning the MVP, I think he would move ahead of Hakeem and Doc, and be right there in the argument with West and Oscar. I do think what keeps people from ranking Kobe as high as I am is because that people can't stand him.

The Rest

14. Moses Malone
15. John Havlicek
16. Bob Pettit
17. Karl Malone
18. Rick Barry
19. Walt Frazier
20. Charles Barkley

At his peak, Moses was absolutely dominant and was the best center in the L from 1981-1983. I think he's a tier below the other elite centers though. Havlicek wasn't the statistical beast that a lot of players were, but the bridge between the Russell and Bird years, and the blueprint for how a guy can be a role player in one championship era and the star player in the next. They round out my Top 15.

Bob Pettit was the leader of one of only two teams to stop the Bill Russell dynasty, even though he didn't have the longevity of a Karl Malone, his peak and prime was just as good, and he didn't play with a PG on the level of John Stockton. Karl Malone was a world class choke artist, but statistically one of the most dominant PFs ever, had unbelievable longevity and played at an extremely high level for well over a decade. Rick Barry was one of the great scorers in NBA history, an NBA champion, and revolutionized the game with the point forward position at the end of his career. Clyde Frazier was the defensive cog and playmaker of the great Knicks teams of the 1970s and one of the great big game players of all time. Charles Barkley was Charles Barkley.

If Kevin Garnett wins an NBA title this year, I think he jumps into the Top 20. I think this current season wipes out any of the terrible years the T-Wolves had on his resume. I've been critical of him in the past and have said that those bad Minnesota teams reflected poorly of him, but this season made me flip flop on KG. He's clearly a special player who was put in a tough situation that wasn't his fault. Yes, he's playing with two All-Star level talents, but this team isn't 66-16 without KG. He has the stats, he has an MVP, the criteria is there. He just needs the title.

Patterns · Post #2 » by **Patterns** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:53 pm

That's pretty good but I'd bump West to #13.

Blackfyre · Post #3 » by **Blackfyre** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 7:06 pm

Kareem is so underrated sometimes. He is 4th at worst and 2nd or 3rd best player of all time in my list. He is on par with MJ as far as individual achievements go. 6 MVP's, 6 Time NBA Champion, dominant at both ends of a floor, very Clutch for a big man and his resume goes on and on. His peak is one of the best you can have and he might be even greater player than mighty Wilt because his play didn't decline when PO time came and even at age of 38 he was playing like he was at his prime vs Boston in 85 Finals.
My TOP 10 :
1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem-Abdul-Jabbar
3. Wilt Chamberlain
4. Bill Russell
5. Magic Johnson / Larry Bird
6. -
7. Shaquille O'neal
8. Hakeem Olajuwon
9. Tim Duncan (he will surpass Hakeem soon and maybe even Shaq)
10. Jerry West
11. Oscar Robertson

And btw i wouldn't put Kobe 13. yet.

Smills91 · Post #4 » by **Smills91** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 7:10 pm

How is Tim Duncan that low on your list?

vct33 · Post #5 » by **vct33** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 7:32 pm

I'm not gonna post a list because it's such an arbitrary thing to do. Having said that, I have seen enough already to put LeBron in the top 5. I'd like to call him #1 but I'm willing to wait a few years until it's more acceptable.

If I exclude LBJ, Magic is my clear choice for the top spot with Bird and Jordan as close 2nd and 3rd.

I'd rank Hakeem Olajuwon and Shaquille Oneal very highly as they would be my top 2 centers of all time. They'd probably fall in like the 6 & 7 spots.

A few guys that don't get mentioned enough in these types of lists that would definitely be in my top 20 are: Dominique Wilkins, Kevin McHale, Charles Barkley, James Worthy and Isaiah Thomas.

Finally, I'd have a hard time including anybody who played in the 50's & 60's. The competition was so feeble that I have a hard time believing that they would standout nearly as much against the modern player.

KNICKS1970 · Post #6 » by **KNICKS1970** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 8:06 pm

vct33 wrote:Finally, I'd have a hard time including anybody who played in the 50's & 60's. The competition was so feeble that I have a hard time believing that they would standout nearly as much against the modern player.

....wow.

I'll just wait until writerman discovers this thread.

Duiz · Post #7 » by **Duiz** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 8:06 pm

I would put Chris Paul in #1 cause MJ will never compare to Chrissy.

Post #8 » by **Harry Palmer** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 8:08 pm

KNICKS1970 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

....wow.

I'll just wait until writerman discovers this thread.

...I would LOVE it if his post began with 'TARNATION!'

Hakeem's way too low, btw.

G35 · Post #9 » by **G35** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 8:27 pm

Kareem was outplayed by more non top 10 players than anyone? When and can we get some stories, numbers, reasons for this statement because how do you get 6 MVP's getting outplayed by inferior players........

KNICKS1970 · Post #10 » by **KNICKS1970** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 9:00 pm

G35 wrote:Kareem was outplayed by more non top 10 players than anyone? When and can we get some stories, numbers, reasons for this statement because how do you get 6 MVP's getting outplayed by inferior players........

You're misquoting me or you misunderstood that paragragh. I said Kareem got outplayed by Walton and Moses, who aren't Top 10 players, and that no one else in the Top 6 got outplayed like Kareem did against Moses Malone and Bill Walton in the prime of their careers. He got outrebounded 72-30 in the 1982 NBA Finals by Moses. Walton dropped 20 points and 23 boards on Kareem in the '77 Conference Finals.

Granted, these weren't scrubs, without injuries Walton could've been one of the greatest players ever, and I have Moses ranked #14. And I'll admit I'm probably being a little hyperbolic (I'm sure there are games where Bird or Magic looked bad against non-top 10 players), but, for me at least, those games against Walton and Moses stand out.

JordansBulls · Post #11 » by **JordansBulls** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 9:14 pm

KNICKS1970 wrote:Alright, this topic has been done roughly 92332523x over the last year or so, but the "Where Does Kobe rank with an MVP" topic made me realize that there are a ton of players, in this year alone, who could jump several rankings depending on how their team finishes. Kevin Garnett could make his case as a Top 20 player if the Celtics win a championship, Kobe could make his case as a Top 10 player if the Lakers win it all. A lot of these great players are winding down their careers, and unless you're completely biased, you have to consider these guys as some of the best to ever play the game.

Here's my list.

1. LeBron James

Just kidding. He's nowhere close to that now. Although I think I should point out that this is his trajectory and this is his ceiling. At 23 he's playing better than a lot of ATG players in the prime of their careers.

I think I should point out now that saying that a current or recent player is or could be better than a player from 10-20-30-40 years ago isn't not disrespecting the past or being a frontrunner for current players. For whatever reason, I think people are scared to give credit where credit is due to current players.

The consensus Top 2:

1. Michael Jordan
2. Wilt Chamberlain

The reasons have been said before, Jordan is the leader of the greatest dynasty since Russell's Celtics. That combined with his statistical prowess made him the Russell-Chamberlain of his generation. The one knock anyone gives him is that "he had no rivals", which actually enhances his argument as the GOAT. It wasn't that he didn't play in an era where the competition was "weak", it's just that he was really that much better than any other player playing in his era, and he won six titles in an era full of great big men in a league where big men have historically ruled. MJ had no real weaknesses, was still clearly the best player in the league in his mid-30s, and played at an All-Star level at 40. I think that puts him over the top.

I've usually knocked Wilt around in the past arguing these two, but that's not because I don't recognize what he's done. He's the most dominant player in NBA history, was the leader of two of the Top 5 teams in NBA history, and was successfully able to change his style from dominant scorer to facilitator/defensive presence as his career wound down. And I think that in an All-Time Fantasy Draft, Chamberlain would go #1 without a moment of hesitation from anyone. I think you definitely have to factor that in, which is why even though he has the least amount of championships of anyone in the consensus Top 6, he's in everyone's Top 2 and ranked GOAT by many.

However, I do think that the fact that he was a liability at crunch time and did not come through in many big game situations. Although he won the Finals MVP award, he did play the sidekick to Jerry West on those Lakers teams. Also, I think the fact he was traded twice hurts him. For many reasons, both on and off the court, Michael Jordan was the most untradeable player in the history of not just the NBA, but the history of team sports. I'd love for someone to give more insight on this.

I go Jordan over Wilt, but unlike a lot of Wilt or MJ fans, I don't think you go wrong with either one. I think these two guys are clearly the top 2 players ever, and I try not to be dismissive of other's opinions, but if I honestly feel that any list that doesn't have MJ and Wilt as the top 2 shouldn't be taken seriously at all. Sorry.

The Consensus 3-6.

3. Bill Russell
4. Magic Johnson
5. Larry Bird
6. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

Here's where it gets a little murkier. Bill Russell is the greatest winner in the history of American sports and thats why he's #3. I think his defensive prowess along with his leadership qualities puts him over there in my view. People like to think that he was surrounded by such overpowering talent, but I do not think for a second that Wilt, Kareem, or even Jordan would have won 11 championships with that team. As a team leader, he has absolutely no peers. The big argument against him was that he wasn't the dominant offensive player that a lot of these guys were, but I think that if he could, he would and could put up 30 PPG if his team needed it. Russ is the ultimate example of someone doing whatever it took to win.

I don't rank him ahead of Wilt, even though I do not think Wilt would win 11 championships in his situation and Russell would win more than 2 in his situation, because Wilt was just so astoundingly and statistically dominant for his era. If Russell would've shut out Wilt, maybe I'd think differently. But Wilt won a title while Russell was playing, that plus the 72 championship and Finals MVP plus his stats puts him over Russell.

Magic and Bird are so intertwined together throughout their careers and beyond, one has to follow the other. Magic lead one of the only 4 dynasties in NBA history, but Bird at his peak was the better player. People forget this now, but there was legitimate debate in the mid-80s about whether Bird was the best player ever. Just look up the Larry Bird articles at the Sports Illustrated Vault - http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/. But I think that Magic stayed consistently great, while Bird started to break down once the 90s hit. When things are close, I feel like championships decide things, and Magic beats Bird 5-3.

Unfortunately, that puts Kareem out of the Top 5, even though he probably has the best resume out of any player ever. But at their peaks, Bill Walton and Moses Malone completely outplayed him. They didn't last nearly as long, but it's worth factoring in. I don't think anyone else in the top 6 got outplayed by non-Top 10 players like Kareem did.

The Next Tier

7. Shaquille O'Neal
8. Tim Duncan
9. Jerry West
10. Oscar Robertson
11. Hakeem Olajuwon

Like Wilt, Shaq has been traded twice which probably hurts him, but he's been to the Finals with every team he's been on and won 4 times. Duncan has just as many titles and has done them with good teams but without a superstar sidekick (although if they win this year, Manu Ginobli might qualify). It's hard to think this way for whatever reason, but they really are the 2000s equivalent to Bird and Magic, almost right down to the archetypes. Unlike Bird and Magic, I'd rank the more dominant guy ahead of the more consistent career as of this moment, because Shaq arguably was the MDE when he was in his absolute prime.

I'd rank West at #8 despite the fact he only won 1 championship and zero MVP awards. For starters, he was in the championship hunt every year and although he lost numerous times to Russell's Celtics, he may have been the most clutch player in all those series, and even won the Finals MVP in a losing effort. I don't think you necessarily go wrong with ranking Big O above West (he did win an MVP and a championship), but watching whatever old games I've seen and just reading about the two, I'm more impressed with The Logo.

I think if you lay out the resumes and the types of players each of these guys are, I'd rank the current players over the older guys. It's may seem controversial, but I think we need to get past the hesitation of moving some of the current players ahead of the older players. Duncan and Shaq's resumes dwarf West and Oscar's, and I think it's fair to say in an All-Time Fantasy Draft they'd probably get picked first. So why would West or Oscar be ranked first? Because they played in an arbitrarily designated "weak era"? Sorry, but I think that's one of the weakest arguments anyone can make. West and Robertson won titles in an era when some of the best players in the country were playing in a completely separate league. Why don't isn't that considered that a "weak era"? Every era is different, but that doesn't necessarily make one "weaker" or "tougher" than the others.

I loved Olajuwon, but I think he gets a little overrated on these boards. Mostly because he's flashier than O'Neal and Duncan on both offensive and defensive ends of the court, and he had two absolutely awesome seasons (1992-1993 and 1993-1994) and carried his team to one of the most memorable playoff runs in NBA history (1995). But it's commonly accepted that Olajuwon was the 2nd greatest player of the Jordan era, and after leading the Rockets to two titles he was, but I think people have forgotten that from 1990-1993, Charles Barkley was probably the 2nd best player in the league after Jordan. Then he was knocked off that perch by Karl Malone in the second half of the decade.

I think it's close between all these guys, but I like the resumes of the big guys and the two little guys from the 60s more than Hakeem, but you could easily make the case that he's better than all these guys and I'd understand the rationale.

Doc vs. Kobe

12. Julius Erving
13. Kobe Bryant

Doc is the blueprint for all the great swingmen that play today. I don't necessarily buy into the whole "if so-and-so played in today's game, they would be just as good as they were in the 60s/70s/80s" line of thinking, but I think that Dr. J is one of those players who really would be as good, or even better, in today's game. I really wish that the ABA merger occured in the early 70s instead of the mid-70s, because I do think that it's tough to measure how good a lot of those players were with separated stats. The best argument for Doc is that as soon as he went to the NBA, he carried the Sixers to the NBA Finals. He was truly ahead of his time.

I'm ranking Kobe at #13, even if he doesn't win the MVP this year. Kobe is a more skilled player, a better scorer, a better defensive player, and he was a major cog on one of the great championship runs (not a dynasty) in NBA history. Shaq was the best and most dominant player on the team, but other than the first championship, it's faulty memory to just categorize Kobe as a "sidekick". He's been the best all-around swingman in the league for nearly a decade, since he was 21 years old. He's one of the four or five most clutch performers in NBA history. And to flip the script, I think that Kobe is one of those "all-era" guys like, well, like everyone in the Top 20 or so. He'd be good in any era, so using the whole "Doc played in the 80s!" argument doesn't really hold water in my view.

But I'm putting Kobe a rung below Doc. What holds him back is that he was a big part of why Shaq left the Lakers. Not exempting Shaq from all that drama, but O'Neal did prove with the Heat and with the Suns that he is willing to take a back seat when the time was right. If Kobe had been a better team player, the Shaq-Kobe Lakers could've been a legitimate dynasty, with Kobe taking the reigns a la Magic when the big man started to break down. I think he's a better player than Doc, but he's not a GREATER player, if that makes any sense. The whole Shaq-Kobe drama and aftermath have to be factored in.

That said, if part of that aftermath includes the Lakers winning the title and Kobe winning the MVP, I think he would move ahead of Hakeem and Doc, and be right there in the argument with West and Oscar. I do think what keeps people from ranking Kobe as high as I am is because that people can't stand him.

The Rest

14. Moses Malone
15. John Havlicek
16. Bob Pettit
17. Karl Malone
18. Rick Barry
19. Walt Frazier
20. Charles Barkley

At his peak, Moses was absolutely dominant and was the best center in the L from 1981-1983. I think he's a tier below the other elite centers though. Havlicek wasn't the statistical beast that a lot of players were, but the bridge between the Russell and Bird years, and the blueprint for how a guy can be a role player in one championship era and the star player in the next. They round out my Top 15.

Bob Pettit was the leader of one of only two teams to stop the Bill Russell dynasty, even though he didn't have the longevity of a Karl Malone, his peak and prime was just as good, and he didn't play with a PG on the level of John Stockton. Karl Malone was a world class choke artist, but statistically one of the most dominant PFs ever, had unbelievable longevity and played at an extremely high level for well over a decade. Rick Barry was one of the great scorers in NBA history, an NBA champion, and revolutionized the game with the point forward position at the end of his career. Clyde Frazier was the defensive cog and playmaker of the great Knicks teams of the 1970s and one of the great big game players of all time. Charles Barkley was Charles Barkley.

If Kevin Garnett wins an NBA title this year, I think he jumps into the Top 20. I think this current season wipes out any of the terrible years the T-Wolves had on his resume. I've been critical of him in the past and have said that those bad Minnesota teams reflected poorly of him, but this season made me flip flop on KG. He's clearly a special player who was put in a tough situation that wasn't his fault. Yes, he's playing with two All-Star level talents, but this team isn't 66-16 without KG. He has the stats, he has an MVP, the criteria is there. He just needs the title.

Good list. Here was a thread on it as well.

http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic. ... sc&start=0

Also not sure how Bird or Magic is above Kareem though.

IMO in order to be the top you have to be great on both ends of the court and have the numbers and accolades as well.

vct33 · Post #12 » by **vct33** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 9:28 pm

KNICKS1970 wrote:....wow.

I'll just wait until writerman discovers this thread.

Not saying that some of those guys couldn't still be stars but their achievements were definitely inflated due to weak competition.

ice9 · Post #13 » by **ice9** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 9:32 pm

vct33 wrote:I'm not gonna post a list because it's such an arbitrary thing to do. Having said that, I have seen enough already to put LeBron in the top 5. I'd like to call him #1 but I'm willing to wait a few years until it's more acceptable.

If I exclude LBJ, Magic is my clear choice for the top spot with Bird and Jordan as close 2nd and 3rd.

I'd rank Hakeem Olajuwon and Shaquille Oneal very highly as they would be my top 2 centers of all time. They'd probably fall in like the 6 & 7 spots.

A few guys that don't get mentioned enough in these types of lists that would definitely be in my top 20 are: Dominique Wilkins, Kevin McHale, Charles Barkley, James Worthy and Isaiah Thomas.

Finally, I'd have a hard time including anybody who played in the 50's & 60's. The competition was so feeble that I have a hard time believing that they would standout nearly as much against the modern player.

That's a doozy of a post. I think it kindof speaks for itself, no one needs to bother critiquing it...

1) Jordan
2-6) I change the order of Wilt-Russ-Bird-Magic-KAJ all the time. KAJ tends to be at the top of this group for me.
7-11) Shaq, TD, West, Hakeem, Oscar looks right
12-13) I've got Moses, Dr J... I think

14-19) no order, Hondo, Baylor, Kobe, Admiral, Barkley

vct33 · Post #14 » by **vct33** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 9:59 pm

ice9 wrote:That's a doozy of a post. I think it kindof speaks for itself, no one needs to bother critiquing it...

Say what you want. If you want to argue that MJ should be #1, I'll listen to the argument. I won't even fight back because it's a solid assertion. Perhaps you could even change my mind. However, I cannot listen to an argument that the guys from the 50s & 60s could accomplish what they did in today's game. You can't convince me that Wilt was a better player than Hakeem. You certainly can't convince me that West or Havelicek were better than Kobe or LeBron.

vct33 · Post #15 » by **vct33** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 10:06 pm

KNICKS1970 wrote:
The consensus Top 2:

1. Michael Jordan
2. Wilt Chamberlain

con

JordansBulls · Post #19 » by **G35** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 12:28 am

vct33 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

con

"Talent wins games, but teamwork and intelligence wins championships."
- Michael Jordan