What about Harrington for Nene?

[Sleepy51]

As far as the coaches responisibility for Baron's embarassing 3pt numbers? Yes, Nellie's system emphasises taking more outside shots, but the rule has seemingly been you can take the early 3, or any 3 if you have room to shoot it.

Baron didn't take 525 uncontested 3's. He probably took 300 open 3's this season. FAR TOO OFTEN, especially in the 2nd half, Baron's plan B when nothing developed in the offense, or when he got the ball back after an Al/Bukie/Pete reset, was to step back and fire from long range. His plan B ALWAYS should have been to attack the basket. Unfortunately, like you, he thinks he's a shooter. If he knew he was a terrible shooter (like Tony Parker) he would force the action inside and let the SHOOTERS on the team take the long balls.

[Sleepy51]

P.S. Mike Miller outrebounded Al this year. He's a guard for crissakes.

You just don't like him because he's chinese.

[turk3d]

-= original quote snipped =-
A playoff spot.

Last time I checked, T-Mac and Bron (two so-called "bad shooters" in the excerpt from the article Sleepy posted made the playoffs) and Bron (with his "non-shooting" self) made it pretty far last year.

Who's the "shooters" on Houston other than T-Mac (41.9%)? Is it Alston (39.4%), or is it Battier (42.8%), or what about Head (43.2%)? Or maybe Bobby Jackson (40.3%)?

And what about Cleveland outside of Bron's 48.4% (not bad for a "non-shooter", I'm sure a lot of that is inside stuff), we have Szerbiak's 43.1% (I've heard him referred to as another "so-called" shooter), Sasha Pavlovic (another "supposed" shooter) at 36.2%, Devin Brown (40.9%), Damon Jones at 41.6% (yeah, he's another "shooter" I hear, maybe we should get him, trade him for Baron), Daniel Gibson (yeah, he's another great shooter, he tore it up in the playoffs) 43.2%.

When you look at that, Baron Davis 42.6% and Jack's 40.5 (far worst than Baron's but everyone wants to harp on Baron) don't look all that terrible. If anything, we all ought to be clamoring for getting rid of Jack, especially since he stopped playing D.

So it's not about us being short a shooter (sure you can always find someone who can shoot better than what you've got but it doesn't mean you can get him), you have to look at what other things each player brings to the table).

Jack for Miller, I'd do in a heartbeat but I doubt Memphis would. Heck, I'd even do Jack and Al to get Miller maybe (what about Jack and Al for Miller and Warrick, you think Memphis would bite?). Miller playing 3 for us would be great, I'm just against trading Al for him and winding up with Miller playing the 4 for us. Miller at 4 (although better than Bukie and probably better than Pietrus and Barnes) and Jack at 3 would make us worse than we are even now imo.

Biedrens/Croshere (give Nellie his small ball in little spurts)/Perovic
Al/Wright/Barnes (amybe an occasional Barnes for old times sake)
Miller/Barnes
Monta/Bukie/Belinelli
Baron/Ellis/#14 pick?

I'd be ok with that. I think Miller would probably be an improvement over Jack but if he had to play the 4 for us, we (and he) would be in trouble.

There's a number of reasons why we didn't make the playoffs but it's not for lack of "shooters". Both Houston and Cleveland prove this. There's many other things, most of which have been discussed here ad nauseum.
Until Nellie or the FO decide to do something about the real problems we have, we will continue to be in the same boat. If you look at who has the highest shooting % on those two teams, you'll find that they are their bigs (surprise?). The difference between them and us (as far as getting into the playoffs is concerned) is they play their bigs and we don't (for the most part), we play our chuckers instead, about 75% of the time.

[turk3d]

P.S. Mike Miller outrebounded Al this year. He's a guard for crissakes.

You just don't like him because he's chinese.

I don't like him because he's a pussy.

[Sleepy51]

If we're talking about chucking vs. shooting, then you have to account for range somehow in your analysis.

Szcerbs is one of the worst interior finisher's I could imagine.His 43% FG % is almost wholly dependent upon hitting jumpshots from 15ft and out (i.e. shooting.)

Lebron's bad outside shooting is bouyed by his fanstastic ability to penetrate and finish at the rim.

You can't just throw FG% out there and say someone is a good or bad "shooter." There's more to it than that. Instead of looking at FG%, I'd suggest taking a look at the 3pt %'s or maybe the difference between FG and 3pt%.

As far as your considerable consfusion about the form and function of the female sex organs, you don't have to like Mike Miller to acknowledge that Baron AND JACK are bad shooters. You just have to like basketball.

[FNQ]

Even Tay's not a good shooter... we dont have a good shooter. Clutch shooting? We got that. But our best pure shooter is Harrington... so long as he has legs underneath him.

[turk3d]

If we're talking about chucking vs. shooting, then you have to account for range somehow in your analysis.

Szcerbs is one of the worst interior finisher's I could imagine.His 43% FG % is almost wholly dependent upon hitting jumpshots from 15ft and out (i.e. shooting.)

Lebron's bad outside shooting is bouyed by his fanstastic ability to penetrate and finish at the rim.

You can't just throw FG% out there and say someone is a good or bad "shooter." There's more to it than that. Instead of looking at FG%, I'd suggest taking a look at the 3pt %'s or maybe the difference between FG and 3pt%.

As far as your considerable consfusion about the form and function of the female sex organs, you don't have to like Mike Miller to acknowledge that Baron AND JACK are bad shooters. You just have to like basketball.

OK, I'll agree that Baron and Jack are "bad shooters" for the most part (although they're up there with guys like T-Mac who's a pretty darn good player) and that Mike Miller is better than they are (shooting wise). But I think that hands down Baron is the better player and Jack is probably just as good and Al is just about as good (when you look at their all around play). So if you expect me to get all "jazzed" about trading for a guy who is not much better (if at all) than the guy who we're trading to get him, I just can't. Jack straight up for Miller is about the only deal that I think I would do, but I don't think Memphis does it. Baron I wouldn't even consider and Al I wouldn't do either for the reasons mentioned. That's what we're talking about here, who we might trade for, right? If you make shooting the only criterion in this discussion then I might have to agree with you, but that's not totally it, which has been my point from the outset.

BTW, I'd put Miller on my all cheesecake team along with Busty.

[Sleepy51]

Dude . . . you do realize you're the one who brought up Mike Miller right?

I was responding to the part of your post where you said "we have enough shooters" I really don't care if you think Miller can play or not. My interest in the conversation was about the fallacy that Baron and Jack are adequate perimeter shooters.

Get over Mike Miller already :eyeroll:

[turk3d]

Dude . . . you do realize you're the one who brought up Mike Miller right?

I was responding to the part of your post where you said "we have enough shooters" I really don't care if you think Miller can play or not. My interest in the conversation was about the fallacy that Baron and Jack are adequate perimeter shooters.

Get over Mike Miller already :eyeroll:

Went back and looked at the post where I brought Miller up. It wasn't in this thread it was in others that I saw it suggested that he be brought over (not sure if you were one of the proponents or not). Here's what I said:

A lot of people here really like Miller, I don't. We have more than enough shooters on this team, getting Miller keeps us small (even smaller as Al is even a better rebounder/defender than he is. I want to get bigger not, smaller. If Nene returned to form, I'd like him, but may be too small for Nellie ball. Perhaps if he split minutes with BWright and slimmed down a little he could fit in. He and Beans on the boards would be great. Nene also has a great low post game which is something we sure could use. Crit would be nice but he'd be a 3rd stringer so not much of an impact. To be honest I'd prefer Al over Miller. Is it just me?

Your response:

You need to rethink that statement. We have a lot of guys who shoot the ball a lot. We don't have a lot of shooters.

I see what happened: Before your response, you quoted the above part of what I said:

We have more than enough shooters on this team, getting Miller keeps us small (even smaller as Al is even a better rebounder/defender than he is.

Now I see that it was not the part of my quote that I thought you were referring to (which was about Miller) which is how he has become the emphasis of this discussion. Im probably much more against bringing him in than I would be averse to bringing in another shooter, but one better than the ones we have. I would just insist that whoever that is, we replace ours in the process. A shooting big: even Nellie would like that.
(supposed to be "droop" emoticon, but looks more like droop, lol).

Let me make one more point here Sleepy. In another one of your posts (I believe a different thread, maybe it was the Bukie one), you talked about guys being able to work on their handles (I believe it was) or maybe it was their passing (ie. see Monta this season). Guys can certainly work on their shooting, in particular their shot selection (which I say has more to do with being a "good" shooter than being a "bad" one). So I say Baron and Jack both can correct much of what they are doing wrong (if they want to) or if they have a coach who's going to take the right measures to force them to do it. J-Rich, who you purport to be a "good" shooter, may well be now, but he certainly wasn't for a long time in his career. Neither was he a good defender and he was a terrible dribbler for a long time in his career. He was always a good rebounder and although it took him a while, he became an above average 3 point shooter, but it took a while.

I suppose you could also talk about guys who are what might be termed "natural" shooters of which Baron and Jack definitely are not. Guys like Reggie, Rick Barry, Ray Allen and others (who are very few and far between) of that ilk and I suppose you might put Miller in there if you want to, but you do have shooters out there who are "made" shooters in comparison with those are are born to "shoot" I suppose. If you would like to call J-Rich a "shooter" according to your definition, then you would have to say he was a "made" shooter as he sure wasn't a natural shooter.

I get your point, it was somewhat of a miscommunication, so most of this is just for discussion purposes.

[Sleepy51]

You're giving two very veteran players advance credit for making a colosal change to their games?

Jack and Baron have never had good shot selection and neither have made vast improvements in any particular elements of their games to this point . . . they are who they are.

We NEED guys on this team who shoot the ball consistently better than they so they will defer some of the outside duties. (And I do believe they would.) Al can't keep his consistency in our style of play, and we dumped Jason. Bellie looks to be a streak shooter as well.

We need to ass size and we need to add real shooters.

This roster is still 5 deep and paper thin. That's why I have a hard time blaming Nellie for not getting 52 wins with what is mostly junk after the starting 5. (6 if you count Brandan as a wasted asset this year)

6 players dude . . . it's not just the coach.

[turk3d]

If you want to debate it, we can but I say it's totally the coach. The fact that he had a choice to play whoever he wanted and CHOSE to play only 6 guys (most of whom were chuckers over guys who had way better shooting %) is his fault and his fault alone.

You want players in who make the coaches look good. I want coaches who make the players look good. Nellie, for all his positive attributes, is a coach who makes most of his players look bad, unless of course he picks you up off the scrapheap, then he'll try and make you look good, so that he can add to his supposed genius label.

Get Nellie a bunch of stars and I suppose he might get you a ring (in reality it would be they who would be getting him the ring) which I agree he never had (closest he ever came was when he was here and he had Webber but of course we know how that turned out). So unless you're a team like the Lakers or the Knicks or even the Heat who have close to unlimited resources and can put together the best team that money can buy, you're going to get some good players and some not so good players who have their limitations. So what you need is a coach that not only knows his Xs and Os, but one who knows how to use what he has and get the most of his players no matter where they sit on the talent scale. Nellie is just not good at this (or doesn't care to be).

You can't tell me that Nellie had no shot blockers when he had O'Bryant, Lasme and Wright languishing on the bench and he chose to use Bukie, Pietrus and Barnes instead. And to say that Biedrens is not a shotblocker, that would be something I would expect from someone who was a basketball novice, not a purported HOF coach. We can debate this further is you want, but as sharp as you are Sleepy, but with all due respect you'll have a very difficult time convincing me otherwise.

[turk3d]

How many years did Billups play before Larry Brown got a hold of him and turned entire career around?

[Sleepy51]

Things actually started changing for Billups in Minnesota He was already a more attractive player before going to Detroit. Flip helped him to a 50 win season with Garnett long before LB was in the picture.

Thats part of the connection that brought Flip to detroit. He was in a big way, Chauncey's guy.

Billups wasn't more than 25 at the time.

[turk3d]

Things actually started changing for Billups in Minnesota He was already a more attractive player before going to Detroit. Flip helped him to a 50 win season with Garnett long before LB was in the picture.

Thats part of the connection that brought Flip to detroit. He was in a big way, Chauncey's guy.

Billups wasn't more than 25 at the time.

Yeah, but wasn't it Brown who turned him into an all star? You know Flip is a pretty good coach. Some guys play an entire career with a lousy coach, some guys it takes a while for them to get one, and some never get one. Nellie in some respects probably was not the right guy for Baron. Going from Musselman to Monty to Nellie probably was like night and day (compared to what Baron was used to), but it apparently was not enough to get him to the level he should be at. Almost got him there, but not quite. Speaking of LB, look what he did with AI, yet eventually that broke down. I believe that Nellie may have done the best he can with Baron (he really tried), but it just wasn't enough. It takes an exceptional coach to deal with the superstar mentality (which Baron has, regardless of whether or not he is one), look at Phil Jackson and what he had to do before he reigned in Kobe, he had to resign and come back. Sometimes that's what it takes, but in the end he was able to corral him. That's what the REALLY great coaches can do. He also too what I believe was an immensely difficult personality to deal with (huge ego players) like Pippen and even shaq and got them to play a team game. Watch how quickly Baron would transform if he went over to the Lakers. I bet you he'd be taken max 15 shots a game and maximum of 3 threes a game.

Now if you want to tell me that this is just Nellie and we're stuck with him, then I'd say that this is just Baron (and Jack) and we're stuck with them and then of course you'd come back and say trade Baron, well I'd say trade Nellie. lol.

Maybe we're just both stuck.

[Chris Cohan]

Hmmm...I don't see the option that says "Shoot me dead if this happens"

I'll bet you would have said the same thing had you heard about a Murphy and Fisher for Boozer deal Summer 2005 or 2006.

[floppymoose]

I would have gone for that trade. I was one of the few who thought Booz had potential, and that he wasn't dogging it on the injury.

(sidenote: a recurring theme around here is that I trust players to not be dogging injuries more than a lot of other posters do.)

I picked him in my fantasy league draft the year he came back, and was rewarded big time.

[turk3d]

Have to admit, Boozer was one guy who I was really off on although I do think it was before he started juicing. Really thought he was overrated, not any more.

[Chris Cohan]

I would have gone for that trade. I was one of the few who thought Booz had potential, and that he wasn't dogging it on the injury.

(sidenote: a recurring theme around here is that I trust players to not be dogging injuries more than a lot of other posters do.)

I picked him in my fantasy league draft the year he came back, and was rewarded big time.

I would have no problem investing in all of Nene's peak years as a monster over the late half of Harrington's peak years as a jump-shooting, undersized and underskilled 4/5.

On offense, Boozer's skill and talent have always been clear and he's very strong, knows how to position, and is tougher and more hard-working than many had given him credit for. He sucks on defense, for the most part, but has improved there and is only 26 (!). Nene has not produced offensively or on the glass to the tune Boozer did early but he has more of the prototypical 4/5 package than Boozer and can be a strong defender and dominant rebounder. He's out of shape now thanks to some significant life risks this year but he's recovering fully and has been developing into a dominant NBA bigman before this season was derailed.

Nene makes something like $500,00 more than Harrington this year, who is NOT a lock to opt out despite speculation to the contrary, and is a much better longterm commitment than Al Harrington if you're staffing your 4/5 position for anyone other than Don Nelson.

He'd take minutes from Wright and Biedrins but those three seem like a very impressive 4/5 core to me, for what it's worth. Add a player like Darrell Arthur to that group and you suddenly have the potential to play with the big boys without reverting to gimmicky predictability and inconsistent interior play.

[gswhoops]

I'd do Miller/Critt for Al/Beli in a heartbeat. Not even a second thought. Hell, Miller would be a better PF than Al.

Biedrins
Wright
Jackson
Ellis
Baron

Miller = 6th man of the year

I like that squad a LOT better than what we currently have.