Corey Brewer a bust?

[richboy]

No one takes perimeter defenders in the top 7 no matter how good they are. The fact is offense doesn't equal defense. Its much easier for a great offensive player to improve his defense if he has the physical ability than for a defensive player to learn the skills to become a solid offensive player.

I think its just being stubborn to say we happy we took Corey. Your telling me right now knowing what you know you would take Corey over Stuckey. You would take Corey over either Wright or Thornton. Noah looks like the perfect center next to Jefferson. Corey is probably not even a guaranteed starter next year on a horrible wolves team.

[edwinko]

missing a dunk has nothing to do with him being a bust.

But this is just hilarious

[ITK9]

no, he is not a bust, but he is miles behind the talent of thad young, julian wright, brandan wight.

[FNQ]

No one takes perimeter defenders in the top 7 no matter how good they are. The fact is offense doesn't equal defense. Its much easier for a great offensive player to improve his defense if he has the physical ability than for a defensive player to learn the skills to become a solid offensive player.

No basis for that... none whatsoever. In fact, it usually happens the opposite way... not once they hit the NBA level, usually, but you'll rarely see an offensive minded player playing good defense consistently after not playing any to start.. it takes years for NBA players to develop sound defensive skills - most are barely taught them anymore.

McHale simply didnt want to take a risk.. how could he after trading KG in the offseason? Is it his fault the way the system works? Brewer's been the great defender they expected... if he can work his way to scoring 12-15 a game in 32-33 mpg then the Wolves got a hit... the way he was playing more efficiently in the 2nd half makes you think with more understanding / consistency in the offense, he does that no problem...

So a 12-15 ppg player with great D is a bust because he'll never become a franchise player? I dont ever, ever agree w/McHale... but considering what he did the past offseason, he needed a guaranteed asset for his team, and got one in Brewer.

[dunkonu21]

missing a dunk has nothing to do with him being a bust.

But this is just hilarious

(picture)

I took my girl who is from Wisconsin, but can't watch the Bucks cause they are bad. So I was trying to convert her to a T-Wolves fan and told her how sweet Brewer was. Then that happened and we both laughed a lot. He actually had a sick cock back dunk like 23 seconds before it. Look where he jumped on the dunk that was the problem he's trying to be like Bron and jump from the free throw line lol.

[Malinhion]

missing a dunk has nothing to do with him being a bust.

But this is just hilarious

(picture)

It's because Corey has a problem with taking off too far from the basket. He did it all the time at UF. On a fastbreak he'd try to go from right inside the free throw line and he'd have to make some ridiculously acrobatic fingerroll to finish.

[Klomp]

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Oh come one... Kirk Snyder, Marco Jaric, Rashad McCants... That's "talent?"

You also conveniently left off Ryan Gomes

McCants - 15 ppg, set the franchise record for 3's made in a season
Gomes - 13 ppg, probably our best all-around talent (meaning offense, defense, post, perimeter, etc)
Snyder - 8 ppg, doing a lot of the little things to help this team, none of which Cupcake (Green) did before they were swapped
Jaric - 8 ppg, 4 apg, works well with the young guys

[richboy]

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No basis for that... none whatsoever. In fact, it usually happens the opposite way... not once they hit the NBA level, usually, but you'll rarely see an offensive minded player playing good defense consistently after not playing any to start.. it takes years for NBA players to develop sound defensive skills - most are barely taught them anymore.

McHale simply didnt want to take a risk.. how could he after trading KG in the offseason? Is it his fault the way the system works? Brewer's been the great defender they expected... if he can work his way to scoring 12-15 a game in 32-33 mpg then the Wolves got a hit... the way he was playing more efficiently in the 2nd half makes you think with more understanding / consistency in the offense, he does that no problem...

So a 12-15 ppg player with great D is a bust because he'll never become a franchise player? I dont ever, ever agree w/McHale... but considering what he did the past offseason, he needed a guaranteed asset for his team, and got one in Brewer.

Him scoring 12-15 right now would be a stretch.

Even if he could score that much. How you figure that is worth a top 7 pick. If he scores 12 points and he plays great defense on Lebron James he might hold him to 24 25 points. Your still getting killed at the position night end night out.

Offensive players have always been easier to teach defense. Young players often get torched by veteran players. That doesn't mean there careers are doomed as bad defensive players. Kobe Bryant didn't come into the league defending. He worked his way to becoming a great defender. How many defensive specialist have worked there way to a all-nba level offensive player.

[FNQ]

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Him scoring 12-15 right now would be a stretch.

Even if he could score that much. How you figure that is worth a top 7 pick. If he scores 12 points and he plays great defense on Lebron James he might hold him to 24 25 points. Your still getting killed at the position night end night out.

Offensive players have always been easier to teach defense. Young players often get torched by veteran players. That doesn't mean there careers are doomed as bad defensive players. Kobe Bryant didn't come into the league defending. He worked his way to becoming a great defender. How many defensive specialist have worked there way to a all-nba level offensive player.

I don't understand how using the best basketball player in the world as a measuring stick applies at all...

About what % of pure shooters / not defenders, become average defenders?

About what % of pure defenders / not scorers, become average scorers?

Just because offensive players are drafted and more notable, getting more pub... it becomes easier one way or another?

As a coach... its much easier to work with players' offensive games than defensive games... defense is about the desire and commitment to work harder.. offense is more about the personal glory... why do you think HS kids and young college players come out so defenseless?

As for Brewer personally, he eventually scored 7ppg in 21 mpg at the end of the season... getting a player who can't really create for themselves at this level into an offense isn't an easy experience, especially when the "offense" is being run by the likes of Telfair and Jaric..

For Brewer to be a bust he'd have to completely flatline from hereon in... that was the question, right? Not who was taken later than Brewer and is potentially better?

EDIT:



Had to bold that part... I completely skipped over it. More using one of the best names in the NBA to justify that... thats ridiculous... so he can't stop LeBron James, therefore, he's a bust. Well good luck to the entire 07 rookie class... if Oden can't stop Dwight, he's a bust... if Durant cant stop / outscore Kobe, bust...

Shoot... only about 2 or 3 people in the last decade aren't busts by your standards... but those guys cant be busts, since they are now the measuring sticks

[richboy]

[quote="510Reggae"][/quote]

Percentages who knows. I can name many average to poor defenders coming into the league that atleast worked there way to average. I can't think of many if any horrible offensive players that even worked there way to average.

Yes its easier. It takes years to develop offensive skills. Dribble, shooting, passing are not something you can learn in the offseason. I can flat out say that Corey Brewer has zero chance to ever become Kobe Bryant. You can't say that any athletic player cant become Bruce Bowen.

Please with that as a coach nonsense. Good defense is mainly about attitude and will. Offense is about skills.

Your last statement just shows it tall. Brewer has to flatline to be considered a bust. First most people thought Brewer would be much better offensively. I heard some Brewer fans saying he at worse could be a number 2 option. Fact of the matter for Brewer to bust he has to show that he wasn't worth the 7 pick. Right now there are players that have been taken in the 20s and second round that are ahead of Brewer. The chances of him showing that he is even close to one of the 10 best players in this draft is already remote.

No. Not just Lebron James. I'm saying that he loosing his matchup. The idea that your taking a player 7 in the draft that has almost no chance to win his matchup on most nights and has no chance hitting top 10 at his position is laughable.

[FNQ]

There's too much bias there...

Apparently a dumb, athletic player can become smart (which is necessary for good team D) but a smart player can't train his body to become athletic? Dunno man... I've seen too many players change their body type, be it to add or subtract weight/muscle.

Saying defense is only about will is complete crap... a big sign of your absence in organized basketball post-middle school... both offense and defense are a result of reptition... even the most natural of the naturals have to have a work ethic..

There are a lot more natural offensive players than natural defensive players...

But your last 2 paragraphs are the crux of the problem... so there are some players - on better teams - that had better years than Brewer, and that makes him a bust? No... a player who put up hollow stats and showed minimal understanding of the NBA game are potential busts. Take a good look at Yi... he has high bust potential, still.

Brewer though? If he flatlines now and becomes a Trenton Hassell, then yes, he's a bust... but when you ask someone like Brewer to create his own shot, what do you expect? There was very little offense for MIN to spread around... get him a PG that can get him some open shots, and Brewer's infinitely more valuable...

MIN fans need to be praying for Rose... if they get him, getting Brewer to 12 ppg in 30 is certainly not out of the question, and combine that with his already great D, and that would make him a pretty valuable player.

BTW... it doesnt matter if the player scores more if its on volume... and individual matchups are essentially ballast if the team relies on help defense as much as MIN did (since Al, Craig Smith, Ryan Gomes arent stopping much on the block).

Very 1 on 1 ish analysis for a 5 on 5 game.

[richboy]

There's too much bias there...

Apparently a dumb, athletic player can become smart (which is necessary for good team D) but a smart player can't train his body to become athletic? Dunno man... I've seen too many players change their body type, be it to add or subtract weight/muscle.

Saying defense is only about will is complete crap... a big sign of your absence in organized basketball post-middle school... both offense and defense are a result of reptition... even the most natural of the naturals have to have a work ethic..

There are a lot more natural offensive players than natural defensive players...

But your last 2 paragraphs are the crux of the problem... so there are some players - on better teams - that had better years than Brewer, and that makes him a bust? No... a player who put up hollow stats and showed minimal understanding of the NBA game are potential busts. Take a good look at Yi... he has high bust potential, still.

Brewer though? If he flatlines now and becomes a Trenton Hassell, then yes, he's a bust... but when you ask someone like Brewer to create his own shot, what do you expect? There was very little offense for MIN to spread around... get him a PG that can get him some open shots, and Brewer's infinitely more valuable...

MIN fans need to be praying for Rose... if they get him, getting Brewer to 12 ppg in 30 is certainly not out of the question, and combine that with his already great D, and that would make him a pretty valuable player.

BTW... it doesnt matter if the player scores more if its on volume... and individual matchups are essentially ballast if the team relies on help defense as much as MIN did (since Al, Craig Smith, Ryan Gomes arent stopping much on the block).

Very 1 on 1 ish analysis for a 5 on 5 game.

No that would make Rose a very valuable player. There a difference from being a finisher and being the playmaker. Rose setting up Brewer for 12 ppg if he not good enough to do on its own just elevates Rose. Meaning they didn't need Brewer just Rose and someone to finish.

Forgive me for thinking a guard taken in top 7 should be able to create his own shot. You know our evaluation of Brewer isn't that much different. The problem is our value of what he does is very different. Everything you say is right and could be right on target. IMO 10 ppg and great perimeter defense is not worth top 7 in the draft.

Really thinking about it I can't think of any offensively challenged perimeter defenders that have ever been taken as high as Brewer. Historically there are almost no specialist that go very high.

Now I think you can start thinking Brewer as a bust because people have quickly forgotten. Most people thought Brewer offense would be better. I often heard he held his offense back in Florida and could have been better.

Lets qualify some players. There are atleast 10 guys taken behind Brewer that I already can see being better NBA pros. Sean Williams, Daequan Cook, Jared Dudley, both Wrights, Noah, Thornton, Stuckey, Young, Landry, and Davis. Really I'm not even sure if Knick fans would take Brewer over Wilson Chandler. Who knows about Acie Law and Spencer Hawes.

NBA Rookies over the last 30 years that have played atleast 1500 minutes. Only 5 players have a lower PER than Corey Brewer. That doesn't mean he a bust but it doesn't mean that he on his way to proving worth that top 7 pick.

If Brewer becomes Trenton Hassell he is one of the top bust ever. Really if he was just Raja Bell you think that would be worth a top 7 pick. I wouldnt take Raja Bell in the top 7.

Defense is much easier to teach. Every aspect in defense is there in offense and then you add the fact you have to dribble, shoot, etc. You can go from awful like Deshawn Stevenson to being known as a defensive stopper. There are players like Dirk that have worked there way to atleast average defensive ability. How many offensive players have worked there way to Dirk level offense. It doesnt happen.

I said this last draft. You can't draft players based on perceived improvement. If so you take a defensive specialist in the top 7 thinking he might be Bruce Bowen now but perhaps he will be prime Michael Finley in the future. If thats the case then why not take Renaldo Balkman top 10. He a better defender and more talented offensively than Corey Brewer. Why not let Bobby Jones top 10 and give him a chance to sit and improve. He likely would have given just as much defense if not more and been just as bad on offense.

[FNQ]

[quote="richboy"][/quote]

The problem with your analysis/comparing to other picks is that you are comparing them by draft #... draft is over now.

A lot of those players are not better than Brewer... S.Williams can block shots, but man he leaves his man a lot to do that... D.Cook's D is as bad as Corey's O, but one can provide one skill at an NBA level... Brewer's D...

Both Wrights' I agree with, even though they didnt show much, both appear to be on their way..

Noah I love... Thornton? Textbook example of the opposite of what Brewer is... Brewer's a 5 man defender, Thornton is a 1 man scorer, and is becoming really overhyped for it... horrible instincts for a 24 yr old, as far as passing and defense go...

Thad has a higher ceiling and his rotations improved a lot more in April than previous...

Hawes definitely. Law/Chandler/Landry? One noters...

The fact is, Brewer was a safe pick for this very reason, and it seems your fighting that... He likely will become a Raja Bell type, probably more slasher than shooter, but there's not many Raja's out there.

McHale found something very rare, and found a player who was definitely going to be good at it. The risk was to develop his NBA offensive game, and its a small risk considering the rule changes...

Dont confuse hustle and energy with smarts... Brewer is a shrewd defender, while Balkman/Jones are just high energy guys...

I said it before, but in this day an age in the NBA and its fans, it just goes under the radar... when you compare Brewer's D to the best of the best, he's a lot closer than any rookie not named Durant's offense compared to the best in the league...

And your stuff about Rose... that doesn't make sense... you go to way too many extremes. If any legit PG steps in in Minny, then Brewer's ppg go up... their offense was a complete mess and often isolated... depending on the ball-movement-challenged Al Jefferson to score, and if not, looking a bit desperate... except McCants. He loved to chuck from what I saw... irregardless, any semblence of a PG makes it so Corey doesn't go 1 on 1 on offense...

And lastly, PER? Really? PER measures offensive statistics more than anything... you can't bust out offensive stats when dealing with a defensive specialist.

[revprodeji]

very, very good write up.

[richboy]

[quote="510Reggae"][/quote]

The stuff about Rose should make sense. Its like all the players that had career years playing with Stockton. Then fell on there butts when he wasn't there PG anymore. What your pretty much saying is if someone makes Rose better or can make him look better. Well that is something nice to say but that doesn't make him better. If Rose could do that with Brewer then he could do that with someone not named Brewer. I could say I hope the Sonics get Rose because then Gelabale could average 12 points per game.

PER measures defensive stats as well. If you mean it doesn't show individual defense and how he effects the game then thats another thing.

McHale didn't find something rare. He found what he saw on TV. Mchale is the laziest GM in the NBA. He saw Brewer final four and well the rest is history. I just don't understand how you can say good pick he likely found a Raja Bell type with the 7th pick in the draft. Is it safe perhaps. Who takes safe defensive specialist in the top 7. Why are guys like Balkman and Bobby Jones second round talent with just as much if not more defense. Bobby Jones played better than rookie year than Brewer and he being passed from team to team.

I wouldn't consider Jones and Balkman just high energy. Matter of fact last year so much was made about Tyrus Thomas defensive rating. Balkman and Rondo had perhaps the biggest defensive impact of any rookie. They both played on horrible teams that played such good defense when they were in the game that they both outscored there opponents when in the game. Jones was not that far behind. The wolves have plenty much played the same level defense when Brewer is in the game or not.